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Subject: "Self-reference statements"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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José Luis Romero (Guest)
guest
Dec-17-00, 11:23 AM (EST)
 
"Self-reference statements"
 
   Hi! First I want to say I really like your site. I was reading the self-referenced statements (the ones that claim to have
mistakes) and I would like to share a thought. There is really no meaning mistakes or false claims. The statements are grammatically incorrect, so we can't evaluate the meaning. Even though, we think we know what the author of the phrase wanted to say we can't tell for sure. So, the statement: 'Their are three misteaks in this sentence'? has only one spelling mistake ("misteaks" for "mistakes" and one grammar mistake (the bad use of "their" But "false claim" is a mistake only if we know a priori what the meaning of the sentence should be. And that is not the case. Finally, I am not an English speaker so if you find spelling or grammar mistakes in this, it is not some sophisticated paradox; I am just too lazy to use a spell checker.

Hope you got my point

---------------------------------------------
José Luis Romero


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alexb
Charter Member
672 posts
Dec-17-00, 11:29 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Self-reference statements"
In response to message #0
 
   Dear José:

Honestly, I think that I have a feeling for what you might mean, but am not quite sure. Say, may you give me two possible meanings of that sentence. I am just curious in how many ways the sentence might have been possible understood, or misunderstood, for that matter.

Thank you,
Alexander Bogomolny


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José Luis Romero (Guest)
guest
Dec-17-00, 11:45 AM (EST)
 
2. "RE: Self-reference statements"
In response to message #1
 
   In my opinion there are no possible meanings for sentences with formal mistakes. A sentence that doesn't fulfill formal requirements (grammar for example) has no meaning. Syntactical rules are the only way we have to assure that a set of words has
meaning and consequently can be considered a sentence. This is so because rules not only tell us how to write but also how to read and understand sentences. Maybe we can read a note with mistakes and work out its meaning, but it would be just a guess about what the author meant, not what the sentence objectively says. This distinction between the author intention and the objective meaning may be unclear in English (or spoken languages in general) but it is important in math and logic. Take for example this (invalid) proposition:

2 * ( 2 + 3 = 10

We would be tempted to think that a closing bracket is missing and, correcting the mistake, the proposition would be true. But maybe there is an extra opening bracket, and so this would be a valid but false proposition. That's why, in my opinion, we shouldn't talk about the meaning of an invalid statement. Anyway, I read Bolzano's theorem proof in your site and I really enjoyed it. I took calculus last semester and when my teacher though the theorem (with no proof) I thought "how someone actually proved this?". Now I know There are some other proofs that I would like to see but I couldn't get (even searching the net), so maybe you could tell me where I could find them. I am looking for:

Limit formal definitions (including infinite limits)
Limit laws proof (such as lim a + lim b = lim (a+b) )
Weirstrass theorems

If you know a website with that, I would be grateful for the information.

Bye.
---------------------------------------------
José Luis Romero


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alexb
Charter Member
672 posts
Dec-17-00, 11:51 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Self-reference statements"
In response to message #2
 
   Dear José:

You make a valid argument. I just would approach that sentence from a lighter side of mathematics. You did not have problems detecting and fixing two mistakes, did you? The resulting sentence conveys the intended meaning of the original one. Formally speaking you are right, but whether you should be formal or not is a matter of attitude.

My attitude is that people make mistakes all the time, in speech as well as in writing. This does not mean that what they say has no meaning.

You ask about some formal mathematics sit's. You can find much about limits at https://www.shu.edu/projects/reals/index.html.

I do not know of a place that covers Weirstrass' theorem.
I tried searching at https://www.maths.usyd.edu.au:8000/MathSearch.html|MathSearch>. For "Weirstrass theorem" there are too few references. For "Weirstrass' theorem" there are too many. Try to refine the search. There might be something.

All the best,
Alexander Bogomolny


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