CTK Exchange
Front Page
Movie shortcuts
Personal info
Awards
Reciprocal links
Privacy Policy

Interactive Activities

Cut The Knot!
MSET99 Talk
Games & Puzzles
Arithmetic/Algebra
Geometry
Probability
Eye Opener
Analog Gadgets
Inventor's Paradox
Did you know?...
Proofs
Math as Language
Things Impossible
My Logo
Math Poll
Other Math sit's
Guest book
News sit's

Manifesto: what CTK is about |Store| Search CTK Buying a book is a commitment to learning Table of content Things you can find on CTK Chronology of updates Email to Cut The Knot

CTK Exchange

Subject: "Cutting a circle"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences The CTK Exchange College math Topic #9
Reading Topic #9
Paul
Charter Member
Oct-31-00, 08:46 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Paul Click to send private message to Paul Click to add this user to your buddy list  
"Cutting a circle"
 
   What is the maximum number of pieces you can get cutting a circle x times.

I came up with x + (x-1) + (x-2).... + 1 but I'm not sure this is correct.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Cutting a circle alexb Oct-31-00 1
     RE: Cutting a circle dhoore Oct-31-00 2
         RE: Cutting a circle alexb Oct-31-00 3
             RE: Cutting a circle dhoore Nov-01-00 4
                 RE: Cutting a circle alexb Nov-01-00 5
                     RE: Cutting a circle Paul Nov-01-00 6

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
alexb
Charter Member
672 posts
Oct-31-00, 08:49 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #0
 
   Check

https://www.cut-the-knot.com/exchange/circlecutting.shtml

And let me note that if you managed to obtain a formula you must be able to explain how this happened. If you are not sure than either the formula is wrong or your argument is unconvincing, like a guess. In which case you should not claim to have obtain anything.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dhoore
Charter Member
Oct-31-00, 10:38 AM (EST)
Click to EMail dhoore Click to send private message to dhoore Click to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #1
 
   Thank you for your quick reply. I did have a reasoning that led to the formula.


# cuts # pieces

0 1 start with 1 piece for 0 cuts
1 2
2 4
3 7

For every cut, the maximum lines you can intersect with is the previous number of cuts. So the maximum number of pieces bisected is (previous cuts 1), which is the current number of cuts. To get to the total number of pieces you have to subtract the pieces you didn't bisect, which is your previous total number of pieces minus current bisected pieces.

in formula that would be current cuts * 2 (prev total - current cuts) which is current cuts previous total

The 'previous total' is (x-1) (x-2) (x-3) .... 1 (add the one because of the original piece for 0 cuts)

This is how I got to x (x-1) (x-2) (x-3) ..... 1

I think this is correct, but since my math skills are quite rusty, and my niece's math teacher (who gave her the problem in the first place) appears to disagree with this, I thought I'd get the advice of an experienced mathematician.

Thanks a lot for your time, and I hope my explanation was not too
confusing.

Paul.



  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
672 posts
Oct-31-00, 11:49 PM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #2
 
   Have you checked the url I gave you?


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dhoore
Charter Member
Nov-01-00, 10:25 AM (EST)
Click to EMail dhoore Click to send private message to dhoore Click to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #3
 
   I have, and I do not believe this is the same problem. For example, if you connect four points on the circle to each of the other points, you will draw six lines. This will give you only 8 regions. If you try to draw six lines across a circle, the maximum number of regions I believe you can get is 22.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
672 posts
Nov-01-00, 10:30 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #4
 
   LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-00 AT 10:32 AM (EST)

>Msg=What is the maximum number of pieces you can
>get cutting a circle x times.

>I came up with x + (x-1) + (x-2).... + 1
>but I'm not sure this is correct.

Check this. For x = 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 you must get 1, 2, 4, 7, 11, respectively. Your formula simplifies to (just by induction)

F(x) = x + (x-1) + (x-2).... + 1 = x·(x + 1)/2

with

F(0) = 0
F(1) = 1
F(2) = 3
F(3) = 6
F(4) = 10

1 short every time. It appears that the correct formula may rather be

G(x) = x·(x + 1)/2 + 1

The reasoning is very much yours. The max number of crossings is the previous number of lines. The number of added regions is 1 more than the number of new crossings. Let G(x) be the max number of regions after x cuts. Then

G(x) = G(x-1) + (x-1) + 1 = G(x-1) + x

Use this recursively as you did:

G(x) = G(x-2) + x + (x-1)
G(x) = G(x-3) + x + (x-1) + (x-2)
...
G(x) = G(0) + x + (x-1) + (x-2) + ... + 1
= 1 + x + (x-1) + (x-2) + ... + 1
= 1 + x·(x + 1)/2

That's all.

All the best,
Alexander Bogomolny


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Paul
Charter Member
Nov-01-00, 10:42 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Paul Click to send private message to Paul Click to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Cutting a circle"
In response to message #5
 
   Thanks a lot.

Just a clarification, the + 1 in my formula was the + 1 you thought I didn't have, I should have written:

x + x-1 + x-2 + x-3 + ... + x-x + 1

Thanks for pointing out the x·(x+1)/2 simplification. It'seems to be high time I start reviewing some math before I forget everything. I have your site bookmarked and have the best intentions of reading and understanding previous postings.

Thanks again for your time,

Paul.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

You may be curious to visit the old CTK Exchange archive.

|Front page| |Contents|

Copyright © 1996-2018 Alexander Bogomolny

[an error occurred while processing this directive]
 Advertise

New Books
Second editions of J. Conway's classic On Numbers And Games and the inimitable Winning Ways for Your Mathematical Plays