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Subject: "How to prove that the following set is finite?"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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WiZaRd
Member since Jul-7-08
Oct-27-08, 06:52 PM (EST)
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"How to prove that the following set is finite?"
 
   Hello. It is possible to prove that the following set

A:={x in N | 0<=x<=n}

is finite?
_______________________________________
N is the set of natural numbers with 0 (i.e. N:={0,1,2,3,...}) and n is a natural number
________________________________________

I know that is a stupid question, but I have this curiosity.
This question seems to be stupi becouse when we write A:={x in N | 0<=x<=n} we think the set A={0,1,2,3,...,n}, which is already a finite set, but we know that it is a finite set through our intuition, but not through a demonstration. It is possible to prove that A is finite?

Thanks in advance.


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? alexbadmin Oct-27-08 1
     RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? WiZaRd Oct-27-08 2
         RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? alexbadmin Oct-27-08 3
             RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? WiZaRd Oct-29-08 4
                 RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? alexbadmin Oct-29-08 5
                     RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? WiZaRd Oct-31-08 6
                         RE: How to prove that the following set is finite? alexbadmin Nov-09-08 7

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alexbadmin
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2297 posts
Oct-27-08, 07:17 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #0
 
   This question is too close to an axiomatics, so it would be quite legitimate to inquiry as to your definition of finiteness. Natural numbers may be finite simply by definition. This is the case in non-standard analysis.

But you are looking for an argument, right? So, say, with the above caveat, define a number n as finite if n+1 & ne; n.

If natural numbers are defined via Peano axioms then what you are looking for is Theorem 2 at

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/do_you_know/mul_num.shtml

For infinite cardinal numbers, n + 1 = n, see

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/WhatIs/WhatIsInfinity.shtml


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WiZaRd
Member since Jul-7-08
Oct-27-08, 07:46 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #1
 
   Excuse me but I can't undestand how theorem 2 can prove that {1,2,3,...,n} is a finite set.

Theorem 2 prove that the natural number x is not equal to his successor, in this way all the elements of {1,2,3,...,n} are different one to each other, but I can't undestand how this implies that {1,2,3,...,n} is finite.


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alexbadmin
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2297 posts
Oct-27-08, 07:50 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #2
 
   I gave you a definition of what is a finite number: n+1 ≠ n. This is the same as n' ≠ n, which is the content of Theorem 2.

n is the cardinality of the set {1, 2, ..., n}.

A set is finite if its cardinality is finite.

This is my interpretation.

What is your definition of finite set?


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WiZaRd
Member since Jul-7-08
Oct-29-08, 07:38 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #3
 
   To say that a set has cardinality "n" means saying that the set have a bijective function with {1,2,3 ,..., n}, but to say that the cardinality n is a finite cardinality it must be said that {1,2,3,...,n) is a finite set.
So to say that n is the cardinality of (1,2,3 ,..., n) I think is tautological.

My definition are:
1) a set X is a infinite iff there exists a bijective function f:X->Y where Y is a subset of X with Y not equal to X and Y not equal to empty set
2) a set X is finte iff it isn't infinite

Now I would like to prove that {x in N | 0<=x<=n} is a finite set, with "n" natural number, using the definition 1) and 2), or using Peano's axioms. But I think that use Peano's axiom with cardinality saying that "n" is the cardinality of set {x in N | 0<=x<=n} is tautological.


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alexbadmin
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2297 posts
Oct-29-08, 10:37 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #4
 
   Let's try. Denote Nn = {1, 2, ..., n}.

Let M be the subset of N = {1, 2, ...} that consists of n for which Nn is finite.

0 belongs to M because the empty set has no proper subsets at all. Assume m is in M and prove that so is m+1. (Or you can start with {1} which also has no proper subsets.)

Let there be a bijection f from Nm+1 onto a subset S. Order the elements of S and define a permutation g that yields this reordering. The composition of f and g, call it F, is an order preserving bijection from Nm+1 onto its proper subset S.

S may or may not contain m+1. If it does not, define a subset T of Nn that contains all the elements of the latter that are larger than all the elements of S. T has a smallest element t. But then t-1 is in S and is its largest element. For, if there was s in S with s > t-1 we would have, by the definition of t and from s being an element of S, t > s, implying the existence of an integer between t-1 and t, in contradiction to Peano's axioms.

So, S has a largest element u. Swap u and m+1 to obtain a proper subset S' of Nm+1 with a bijection F' that takes m+1 to m+1.

To sum up, either a bijection from Nm+1 onto a subset has the property of mapping m+1 onto itself, or it may be converted to one with this property.

By removing m+1 from both Nm+1 and its bijective image we get a bijection of Nm on its proper subset which contradicts the selection of m.

The induction is complete.


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WiZaRd
Member since Jul-7-08
Oct-31-08, 11:21 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #5
 
   >For, if there was s in S with s >
>t-1 we would have, by the definition of t and from s being
>an element of S, t > s, implying the existence of an integer
>between t-1 and t, in contradiction to Peano's axioms.


Forgive me but I stuck at this point. How can we prove that the existence of a natural number "s" such that "t-1<s<t" contradicts the Peano's Axioms?

P.S.
Forgive me for so long time that I used to answer.


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alexbadmin
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2297 posts
Nov-09-08, 08:17 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: How to prove that the following set is finite?"
In response to message #6
 
   >Forgive me but I stuck at this point. How can we prove that
>the existence of a natural number "s" such that "t-1<s<t"
>contradicts the Peano's Axioms?

All natural number are obtained from 1 through the successor operations. Furthermore, n' > n. Thus they are obtained in an increasing sequence. So, it must be true that there are no numbers between n and n', or so I would expect.

There is Skolem's theorem about non-standard models which claims existence of innumerable sets that satisfy Peano's axioms. It looks like the notion of finiteness differs from the intuitive (customary) one. So, perhaps, my reasoning is faulty, after all.


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