CTK Exchange
Front Page
Movie shortcuts
Personal info
Awards
Reciprocal links
Terms of use
Privacy Policy

Interactive Activities

Cut The Knot!
MSET99 Talk
Games & Puzzles
Arithmetic/Algebra
Geometry
Probability
Eye Opener
Analog Gadgets
Inventor's Paradox
Did you know?...
Proofs
Math as Language
Things Impossible
My Logo
Math Poll
Other Math sit's
Guest book
News sit's

Recommend this site

Manifesto: what CTK is about Search CTK Buying a book is a commitment to learning Table of content Products to download and subscription Things you can find on CTK Chronology of updates Email to Cut The Knot Recommend this page

CTK Exchange

Subject: "Questions about real numbers"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences The CTK Exchange College math Topic #630
Reading Topic #630
Bractals
Member since Jun-9-03
Jun-12-07, 05:59 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Bractals Click to send private message to Bractals Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Questions about real numbers"
 
   Real numbers are defined as the limits of convergent series of rational numbers.

A = lim(n->oo){sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i)}, with a_i = 0,1,...,or 9.

Defines a number in [0,1].

To expand,

For all epsilon > 0, there exists N(epsilon) such that n > N(epsilon) implies |sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i) - A| < epsilon.

Two questions.

1) What is the meaning of |sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i) - A| ? The difference between a rational number "sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i)" and a number that is being defined "A" ?

2) What number system does epsilon come from ? The rational numbers or the number system we are defining ? If the rational numbers, then why not use 1/m for some m > 0 ?


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
2023 posts
Jun-13-07, 00:12 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Questions about real numbers"
In response to message #0
 
   >Real numbers are defined as the limits of convergent series
>of rational numbers.
>
> A = lim(n->oo){sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i)}, with a_i =
>0,1,...,or 9.
>
>Defines a number in [0,1].
>
>To expand,
>
> For all epsilon > 0, there exists N(epsilon) such that n
>> N(epsilon) implies |sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i) - A| < epsilon.

This is hard. I'd like to see a systematic development. E.g. I am sure if you extend Q to include all Cauchy sequences then somewhere along the way you'll have to define the operations in the extended field. But unless this is done, there is an ambiguity which is probably a source of your inquiry.

>Two questions.
>
>1) What is the meaning of |sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i) - A| ? The
>difference between a rational number "sum(i=1,n,a_i/10^i)"
>and a number that is being defined "A" ?

So I think the right definition of a new "A" would be as a set of all Cauchy sequences that have the same limit (i.e., remain Cauchy if interwined.)

>2) What number system does epsilon come from ? The rational
>numbers or the number system we are defining ? If the
>rational numbers, then why not use 1/m for some m > 0 ?

You can do with 1/m. I do not know why the use anything else. In the definition you have to use rational numbers. But once the definition is accepted and properties of the extended operations established you can use epsilon from the extended field.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Bractals
Member since Jun-9-03
Jun-13-07, 11:30 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Bractals Click to send private message to Bractals Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Questions about real numbers"
In response to message #1
 
   Thanks for the response.

After my post I found a PDF on web of eleven pages written by a professor for his class on the construction of R from Q. It answered both my questions.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

You may be curious to have a look at the old CTK Exchange archive.
Please do not post there.

Copyright © 1996-2018 Alexander Bogomolny

Search:
Keywords:

Google
Web CTK