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Subject: "Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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jmolokach
Member since Jan-11-11
Jan-11-11, 01:14 PM (EST)
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"Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
 
I think this is somewhat simpler than what I have written before.

Occam's Razor or just a restatement of Proof 4? I think this is slightly different than proof 4 because the mathematics works out a little differently.

The coordinates of the vertices of the square are within the 5 X 2 matrix with the first one being repeated as is the case when using Gauss's Shoestring area formula...

I happen to like this one...

molokach

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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-11-11 TOP
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem alexb Jan-13-11 1
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-13-11 3
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-13-11 2
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-13-11 4
         RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem alexb Jan-14-11 5
             RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-14-11 6
             RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-14-11 7
                 RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem alexb Jan-14-11 8
                     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-14-11 9
                         RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem alexb Jan-14-11 10
                             RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem mr_homm Jan-14-11 11
                                 RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-14-11 12
                     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Mar-10-11 21
             RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Jan-19-11 13
                 RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem alexb Jan-20-11 14
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-26-11 15
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-26-11 16
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-27-11 17
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-27-11 18
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-28-11 19
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem jmolokach Feb-28-11 20
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem gaespes Mar-16-11 22
  RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem gaespes Mar-18-11 23
     RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem gaespes Mar-20-11 24

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alexb
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Jan-13-11, 01:43 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
   I love this actually. I've been thinking of what is necessary to derive the formula. I am undecided yet. I believe it all is very relevant to Stuart's ideas in the original thread.


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jmolokach
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Jan-13-11, 09:02 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #1
 
Actually what a coincidence! I was just reading the post Stuart wrote where he mentions the formula "just popped out." You should read my latest post where I include a diagram sent to me from Roger Nelsen. This shed some light on why the formula works, although deriving it is still a little shady. If you want, I can forward you the comments he sent along with the image...

molokach


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jmolokach
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Jan-13-11, 09:02 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
Actually I sent this to Roger Nelsen, of PWW fame among other things. He sent me the attached jpeg, the top line of which explains why the proof works. It is somewhat similar to the bottom line of his picture which is proof 4, which he included to show that what I was doing was really equivalent to that. I think they are closely related, but mine subtracts two triangles from a hexagon shape. In one sense I see that as "simpler" since I am only subtracting two triangles rather than four, but in another sense "complex" because of the shearing techniques and the mathematics going on with the matrix.

I have another diagram related to these that I think might be a good visual proof and is somewhere "between" proof 4 and Garfield's proof.

I will add it later this evening when I get a chance to draw it up.

molokach

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jmolokach
Member since Jan-11-11
Jan-13-11, 11:46 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #2
 
Here it is...

molokach

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alexb
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Jan-14-11, 12:33 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #4
 
   John,

I have appropriated the shoelace and R. Nelsen's proofs but not the last one, which seems to me directly related to a number of proofs:

#2, #10, #24


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jmolokach
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Jan-14-11, 01:54 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #5
 
Indeed. I thought about proof 2 quite a bit, but I thought about these two black triangles being translated to the other two, rather than needing a rotation or tesselation of additional two exterior triangles. No doubt it is very close to 2 and I never considered 10 and 24 but I can see the close relationship between these as well.

Roger notes that this diagram is also closely (if not exactly) associated with proof #27.

Indeed many of these proofs are variants of each other. I only included the diagram because this is how I saw the areas being played out from the shoelace rather than Roger's image (which although equivalent makes much more sense in the context of that formula).

Still I wonder how one derived Gauss area formula.

molokach


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jmolokach
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Jan-14-11, 01:54 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #5
 
I don't think there is a vicious circle. I found this link:

https://www.avmathteam.org/lessons/shoelacetheorem

And then asked Roger and he sent me this:

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/blog/25360

(likely copied onto the one I found)

The two seem to be identical and avoid the use of the PT in order to derive the Shoelace Formula.

molokach


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alexb
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Jan-14-11, 01:56 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #7
 
   I do not in fact think it is circular. I just wanted to have a phrase for a potential link in case Stuart decides to write up his thoughts (see a parallel thread.)


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jmolokach
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Jan-14-11, 02:44 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #8
 
Thank you for posting the proof as #91. I did not expect this and was surprised that you did not echo Roger's sentiment that this was closely related to #4.

Still I happen to like the fact that the formula is a simpler proof than many of the other ones I have done.

Perhaps someday I will contribute something outside of the PT...

molokach


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alexb
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Jan-14-11, 02:46 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #9
 
   In my judgement, the shoelace with a single square is a beauty. Supplemented by Roger's pww it is certainly a unique proof.


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mr_homm
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Jan-14-11, 04:16 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #10
 
   I also think the shoestring proof is quite pretty. The shoestring formula doesn't require the PT for its derivation -- it amounts to composing the polygon out of signed triangular areas, where each triangle has one vertex at the origin and shares its opposite edge with the polygon. (I used this formula extensively in a program I wrote some years ago, which produced cartograms (distorted maps where areas of countries were expanded or contracted to represent some geographic variable such as population).) So I concur that there is no circularity.

A very nice proof!

--Stuart Anderson


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jmolokach
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Jan-14-11, 07:11 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #11
 
Thank You. Quite a coincidence that you were talking about some of the same ideas contained in this formula in the other thread.

molokach


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jmolokach
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Mar-10-11, 10:22 AM (EST)
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21. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #8
 
>I do not in fact think it is circular. I just wanted to have
>a phrase for a potential link in case Stuart decides to
>write up his thoughts (see a parallel thread.)

On the page for proof #91, you wrote:

"A question could be asked whether the Shoelace formula, in itself, is based on the Pythagorean theorem, causing a vicious circle in proving the latter."

Is this still in question, given Stuart's comment in message #11?

molokach


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jmolokach
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Jan-19-11, 08:39 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #5
 
In the link:

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/proof91.shtml

You have written "...the are of the square formed..." where I think you mean to say "area"

molokach


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alexb
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Jan-20-11, 12:00 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #13
 
   Yes. Thank you.


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jmolokach
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Feb-26-11, 01:09 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
I have tried a similar approach for a non-right triangle. If side b is "lifted up" above the x-axis some then we would have the following coordinates for a square with side c.

(0,a), (sin(C) / b, cos(C) / b), (sin(C) / (a+b), b + cos(C) / (a+b)), and (sin(C) / a, a + b + cos(C) / a)

Shoestring gives the following:

c^2 = (sin(C) / 2) (3 - (a^2 + b^2) / ab)

This of course has the triangle as acute, but I think a similar method could be used for an obtuse one (lower side b below the x-axis).

Does this come anywhere near:

c^2 = a^2 + b^2 - 2ab*cos(C) ?

I suppose one would have to wrestle with how to convert sine into cosine without recourse to the PT.

molokach


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jmolokach
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Feb-26-11, 01:09 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
sorry my recent post is incorrect...

I have it fixed and will post the right one soon...

molokach


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jmolokach
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Feb-27-11, 03:03 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #16
 
This did not produce what I had hoped. The resulting equation is:

c^2 = (a/c)cosB - cos(B-C)/bc

Quite surprising this could be as c^3 = ....

molokach


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jmolokach
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Feb-27-11, 03:03 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #16
 
Darn it, this is harder than I expected. I made another mistake. It's actually:

c^2 = (a/c)cos(B) - cos(B+C)/bc

I forgot about the sign change in the sum formula for cosine.

I think there is still light at the end of the tunnel if one rewrit's B = pi - (A+C) and B+C = pi - A and the fact that cos(x) = -cos(pi-x) for 0 < x < 180.

I'll keep you 'posted.'

molokach


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jmolokach
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Feb-28-11, 03:03 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #16
 
What an idiot I have been. I should have been multiplying by the hypotenuse c (or b) to produce the hypotenuses...

The whole thing is futile though because it produces the identity:

c = a*cosB + b*cosA

Which could be gained much easier by drawing an altitude...

So if you ever needed to prove something using this identity without using the sine rule (which is drawing an altitide), I suppose you get at it using the shoelace formula.

If it matters to anyone, here are THE CORRECT vertices of the square:

(0,a)
(b*sinC, b*cosC)
(b*sinC + c*cosB, b*cosC + c*sinB)
(c*cosB, a + c*sinB)

molokach


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jmolokach
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Feb-28-11, 03:03 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #16
 
I should have said in the first sentence at the end..."to produce the coordinates."

molokach


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gaespes
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Mar-16-11, 12:04 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
   Shoestring formula is an application of the determinant properties in the plane. With the formalism of complex numbers, these can be stated as follows:
det: C x C --> R
det(1,i) = 1 (normalization)
det(k·a,b)=det(a,k·b)=k·det(a,b) (multiple areas ... and negative ones)
det(a,b)=det(a,b+ka))det(a+kb,b) (parallel gliding)

Using these properties one brings the unit'square to a coordinate rectangle and then to a parallelogram.

Cut and paste in the url bar of your browser:

w3.romascuola.net/gspes/pug.htm?x=600&y=450&o=1.5+i&a=2+i&b=1+3i&v=c&c=1-2i&z=50&t=1000&k=h+t(a-h)&h=ax-ay(bx/by)&g=(floor(4t)=1)a+(floor(4t)=2)(a+b)+(floor(4t)=3)b&f=(floor(cx)=1)(t+(floor(200t)=200t)(i+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(by*i-i)))+(floor(cx)=2)(t(1+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(h-1))+by(floor(200t)=200t)i)+(floor(cx)=3)(t*h+(floor(200t)=200t)(by*i+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))*bx))+(floor(cx)>=4)(t((h+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(a-h))(cx<5)+a(cx>=5))+(floor(200t)=200t)b)&m=by*i+bx*t

In this applet (move the point c horizontally to the right):
h = ax - ay·bx/by
so that the product h·by, which is the signed area of the parallelogram defined by a and b, is det(a,b).

If b is the orthonormal n of a, i.e. b = n = (-ay , ax) follows that:
det(a,n)= ax² + ay²

Cut and paste in the url bar of your browser:

w3.romascuola.net/gspes/pug.htm?x=600&y=450&o=1.5+i&a=2+i&v=c&c=1-2i&z=50&t=1000&n=-ay+ax*i&k=h+t(a-h)&h=ax-ay(nx/ny)&g=(floor(4t)=1)a+(floor(4t)=2)(a+n)+(floor(4t)=3)n&m=(floor(cx)=1)(t+(floor(200t)=200t)(i+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(ny*i-i)))+(floor(cx)=2)(t(1+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(h-1))+ny(floor(200t)=200t)i)+(floor(cx)=3)(t*h+(floor(200t)=200t)(ny*i+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))*nx))+(floor(cx)>=4)(t((h+(cx-1-floor(cx-1))(a-h))(cx<5)+a(cx>=5))+(floor(200t)=200t)n)&f=ny*i+nx*t

So, instead of the hole "shoelace formula", only the "2D-determinant for the signed area of parallelograms" formula is needed.

gaespes


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gaespes
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Mar-18-11, 08:05 AM (EST)
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23. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #0
 
   As an easy consequence of det(a,n) = ax² + ay² (ax and ay are the coordinates of a), the versor vers(a) of a non-zero vector a is the positive multiple of the vector a whose sqare is 1.
This means: det( vers(a) , ort( vers(a) ) ) = 1.
This method can easily be estended, in a very direct way, to the n-dimensional real space, through n-dimensional determinants (n-domensional "signed volumes").

gaespes


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gaespes
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Mar-20-11, 11:30 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Shoestring Proof of the Pythagorean Theorem"
In response to message #23
 
   >As an easy consequence of det(a,n) = ax² + ay² (ax and ay
>are the coordinates of a), the versor vers(a) of a non-zero
>vector a is the positive multiple of the vector a whose
>sqare is 1.
>This means: det( vers(a) , ort( vers(a) ) ) = 1.
>This method can easily be estended, in a very direct way, to
>the n-dimensional real space, through n-dimensional
>determinants (n-dimensional "signed volumes").

I think I have to be a bit more precise about this last post.

First of all, some background considerations about determinants:
The 3) basic properies of determinants:
a) det(coordinate basis) = 1
b) det( ..., k·u, ...) = k·det(..., u , ...)
c) det(..., u , ... , v , ...) = det(... , u , ... , v + k u , ...) = det(... , u + k v , ... , v , ...)
easily yield the following three more properties:
a') det( ... , u , ... , u , ...) = 0
b') det( ... , u , ... , v , ...) = - det( ... , v , ... , u , ...)
c') det( ... , u + u' , ...) = det( ... , u , ...) + det( ... , u' , ...)

Now, consider the following geometrically intuitive hypotheses:
i) for any positive integer n, each coordinate vector in R^n made of only one component equal to 1 and all other components equal to 0 is a unitary vector in R^n
ii) for any positive integer n, each coordinate vector in R^n along the axis x_i is orthogonal to any of the vectors in the subspace x_i=0
iii) for any positive integer n, a unitary vector in R^n yields a unitary vector of R^(n+1) by adding a 0 component in some position as (n+1)th component. By this adding of 0, also orthogonal vectors of R^n yield orthogonal vectors of R^(n+1).
iv) if u and v are unitary mutually orthogonal vectors, then the vectors h·u+k·v and (-k)·v+h·u (both vectors of the (u,v)-subspace) are mutually orthogonal, and if h·u+k·v then also (-k)·v+h·u is unitary
v) if a vector is orthogonal to some vectors, it is also orthogonal to a linear combination of these vectors
vi) for any positive integer n, any n-tuple of unitary vectors in R^n gives a determinant having 1 as absolute value.

If i)...vi) are true, then, for any positive integer n, every unitary (i.e of length 1) vector u=(u_1,...,u_n) in R^n has the two following properties:
1) u can be "completed" with n-1 more unitary mutually orthogonal vectors v_1,...,v_(n-1), all orthogonal to the vector u, to build a n-dimensional determinant det( u , v_1 , ... , v_(n-1) ) = 1
2) Σ(u_i)² = 1 (i through 1,...,n)

Proof:
By induction suppose that in R^n every unitary (i.e of length 1) vector u=(u_1,...,u_n) has the two following 1) and 2).
( this is true for n=2, where v = (- u_2 , u_1) )

Consider a unitary vector a=(a_1,...,a_(n+1)) in R^(n+1) and suppose, that it is not along the fist axis x_1 (i.e. a_2,...,a_(n+1) are not all equal to 0; otherwise a would be the first coordinate vector and the properties 1) and 2) would trivially flollow) and that s=a_1 is non null (otherwise we could treat a as an n-dimensional vector).
So, the "unheaded" vector a*=(a_2,...,a_(n+1)) is a non-zero vector of R^n.
Put r=√<Σ(a_i)²> (i through 2,...,n+1) and u=a*/r, so that u is a unitary vector of R^n and the inductive hypotheses are verified.
Let's call v_1,...,v_(n-1) the n-1 completing unitary vectors of R^n given by property 1) and let's call v*_1,...,v_*(n-1) the same vectors with a zero prefixed as first coordinate (so they are all vectors of R^(n+1).
The (n+1)-dimensional vectors (0,a_1,...,a_n) (let's denote it by the same symbol a*) the vector u*=(0,u_1,...,u_n) and the completing vectors v*_1,...,v_*(n-1) are all in the coordinate (n+1)-dimensional subspace x_1=0 and the vector a is a linear combination of u* and the (n+1)-dimensional vector w having all null components but the first one which is equal to 1; actually, it is: a=a_1·w+a**=s·w+r·u*, u* and w being unitary mutually orthogonal vectors,
so that the vector a'=-r·w+s·u* is orthogonal to the vector a.
It is: det( w , u* , v*_1 , ... , v_*(n-1) ) = det( u , v_1 , ... , v_(n-1) ) = 1.
Now we consider the vectors a' and v*_1 , ... , v_*(n-1) as the n "completing" mutually orthogonal unitary vectors of the unitary vector a (all of them are orthogonal to the vector a).
We also have:
1 = det( a , a' ,v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1) ) = det( s·w+r·u*, -r·w+s·u* , v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1) ) =
= det( s·w , -r·w+s·u* , v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1) ) + det(r·u*, -r·w+s·u* , v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1) ) =
= s²·det( w , u*, v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1) ) + r²·det(u* , - w , v*_1 ,... , v_*(n-1)) = s²+r²
so that 2) is verified.

The best way to understand this process is to develop the step from n=2 to n+1=3. The induction could also be started, in a more subtle and elegant way, at n=1 instead of n=2.

gaespes


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