CTK Exchange
Front Page
Movie shortcuts
Personal info
Awards
Reciprocal links
Terms of use
Privacy Policy

Interactive Activities

Cut The Knot!
MSET99 Talk
Games & Puzzles
Arithmetic/Algebra
Geometry
Probability
Eye Opener
Analog Gadgets
Inventor's Paradox
Did you know?...
Proofs
Math as Language
Things Impossible
My Logo
Math Poll
Other Math sit's
Guest book
News sit's

Recommend this site

Manifesto: what CTK is about Search CTK Buying a book is a commitment to learning Table of content Products to download and subscription Things you can find on CTK Chronology of updates Email to Cut The Knot Recommend this page

CTK Exchange

Subject: "Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences The CTK Exchange This and that Topic #800
Reading Topic #800
Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Dec-12-07, 09:23 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to send private message to Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
 
   Dear All My Friends,
Given one circle (O) and one point P outside this circle. Choose one direction around this circle say d, for example d is clockwise. From P we can draw two tangent lines of (O), say x and y. Two lines x, y bound one angle say A(P) <= 180 and (O) is inside of it. We can always draw third line z tangent with (O) and intersects x, y at X, Y respectively such that: PX = PY and (O) is incircle of triangle PXY. We choose X, Y such that PXY is following direction d.
Now we choose point X as P1 and do with P1 exactly as with P then we can get angle A(P1). Continuing this steps we can get P2, A(P2), P3, A(P3),... Pn, A(Pn),... as much as we can.
My questions:
1. What is the limit of A(Pn) sequence?
2. What we can say about the curve on which are all P, P1, P2,... Pn,... ?
Thank you and best regards,
Bui Quang Tuan


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Geometrical Limit Around A Circle Bui Quang Tuan Dec-12-07 TOP
  RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle mpdlc Dec-13-07 1
  RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle mr_homm Dec-13-07 2
  RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle Bui Quang Tuan Dec-15-07 3
     RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle mr_homm Dec-16-07 4
         RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle Bui Quang Tuan Dec-17-07 5
             RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle mr_homm Dec-17-07 6
     RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle mpdlc Dec-18-07 7

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
mpdlc
Member since Mar-12-07
Dec-13-07, 10:02 PM (EST)
Click to EMail mpdlc Click to send private message to mpdlc Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #0
 
   I do not know if I understood correctly the enunciate , but it looks too easy since by construction the resulted circumscribed triangle is always isosceles it means

2*A(Pn)= pi- A(Pn-1);
2*A(Pn+1)= pi- A(Pn); eliminating pi we get the difference equation

A(Pn+1)=(A(Pn)+A(Pn-1))/2

which solution render P(k)= (P(0)+P(1)+P(2))/3 and since this sum amount 180 degree P(n)= 60 degrees.

The points P, P1, P2 will be located in a kind of spiral being its limit the circumcicle containing the equilateral triangle circumscribed to the given circle. The trajectory it will depend obviously of the initial selection of P

mpdlc


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Dec-13-07, 11:04 PM (EST)
Click to EMail mr_homm Click to send private message to mr_homm Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #0
 
   Hello Bui Quang Tuan,

Each triangle is isoceles by construction, with the current angle A(P_n) between the equal sides. Therefore, 2*A(P_n+1) + A(P_n) = pi. This can be rearranged into the symmetrical form (pi/3 - A(P_n)) / 2 = -(pi/3 - A(P_n+1)). This shows clearly that the angles will alternate between being greater than pi/3 and less than pi/3. Also, at each step, the difference from pi/3 will decrease by a factor of 2. Therefore, the sequence of angles goes exponentially to a stable limit pi/3. Thus the triangles approach being equilateral in the limit.

If the initial angle is expressed as pi/3 + A, then the angles are pi/3 + A*(-1/2)^n, where the initial angle is given number n=0. The angle between the ray OP_0 and OP_1 is then pi - 1/2*(pi/3 + A + pi/3 - A/2) = 2pi/3 - A/4. For each succeeding pair of rays, the angle will be 2pi/3 + (A/2)*(-1/2)^n, where the initial angle is given number n=1. This shows that the points P_0, P_1, ... rotate around the center of the circle in unequal steps that converge to an angle of 2pi/3. (This is as it'should be, because the limiting triangle is isoceles, and so the rotation should be 2pi/3 in the limit.) The total angle of rotation between OP_0 and OP_n is then n*2pi/3 - (A/2)*(1/2)^n.

The distances OP_n will then be R*csc(1/2*(pi/3 + A*(-1/2)^n)), where R is the radius of the circle. These distances will alternately be larger or smaller than 2R, and so they will lie on two uneven spirals, one spiral of decreasing radial distances, and another spiral of increasing radial distances. I think that because angles of 2pi can be discarded, the points will lie on 3 nice smooth spirals going inward and 3 nice smooth spirals going outward. This is because taking n = 1, 4, 7, etc makes angle n*2pi/3 equivalent to 2pi/3, and similarly form n = 2, 5, 8, etc and n = 3, 6, 9, etc.

This is as much as I can see right now. I hope it is of interest.

--Stuart Anderson


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Dec-15-07, 06:43 AM (EST)
Click to EMail Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to send private message to Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #0
 
   Dear Mariano Perez de la Cruz and Stuart Anderson,
Thank you Dear All for valuable and interesting advices!
I have some remarks:
- The fact that limit of A(Pn) = 60 can be used for proofing that equilateral triangle is minimal perimeter triangle circumscribed given circle.
- I try to construct final equilateral triangle if well-known first P point but can not get. May be it is impossible.
- I try to get equations of curves of Pk but still not get. May be they are too complicated.
Thank you again and best regards,
Bui Quang Tuan


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Dec-16-07, 07:22 PM (EST)
Click to EMail mr_homm Click to send private message to mr_homm Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #3
 
   Dear Bui Quang Tuan,

The location of the final equilateral triangle can be found from algebra. Consider that the points P_n, P_n+1 and P_n+2 form the vertices of one triangle. Since the limit triangle is equilateral, it is only necessary to find the location of one of these points. This can be done by looking only at points P_0, P_3, P_6, ... P_3n, ..., which should form a converging sequence of points leading to the a vertex of the limit triangle.

In my previous post, I said that the angle between OP_0 and OP_n was n*2pi/3 - (A/2)*(1/2)^n. That was an error, because I summed the series incorrectly. The correct sum of 2pi/3 + (A/2)*(-1/2)^n from 1 to n is n*2pi/3 - (A/2)*(1/3)*(1-(-1/2)^n) = n*2pi/3 - (A/6)*(1-(-1/2)^n)). Therefore, the angle between OP_0 and OP_3n is 3n*2pi/3 - (A/6)*(1-(-1/2)^3n) = n2pi - A/6*(1-(-1/2)^n). Since multiples of 2pi can be discarded, and since the limit of (1/2)^n = 0, the final angle is therefore -A/6. Thus a vertex of the limit triangle lies at an angle A/6 from the line OP_0 in the opposite direction from the way we choose to go around the circle from each P to the next P. Recall that A is defined as the difference between the vertex angle at P_0 and pi/3.

This answers at least part of the question. I have still not thought much about the spirals.

Regards,

Stuart Anderson


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Dec-17-07, 02:16 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to send private message to Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #4
 
   Dear Stuart Anderson,
Thank you very much for interesting result.
Now I understand why it is difficult for me to construct final equilateral triangle.
Best regards,
Bui Quang Tuan


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Dec-17-07, 00:41 AM (EST)
Click to EMail mr_homm Click to send private message to mr_homm Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #5
 
   Hello Bui Quang Tuan,

Yes, if the limit triangle could be constructed with ruler and compass, you could solve the ancient angle trisection problem, which we know cannot happen.

This is an interesting application of the theorem against angle trisection.

--Stuart Anderson


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mpdlc
Member since Mar-12-07
Dec-18-07, 07:41 AM (EST)
Click to EMail mpdlc Click to send private message to mpdlc Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: Geometrical Limit Around A Circle"
In response to message #3
 
   Many thanks for for kind words.

Due to your interest on the quest of triangle and the path for P(k) I attach a file with my research on it. Since I am recovering from the flu my skills are somewhat impaired so I could not guarantee my formulas are a hundred percent error free but I am sure the procedure is the correct one.

mpdlc

mpdlc

Attachments
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/htdocs/dcforum/User_files/4767be1d57dc7d15.zip

  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

You may be curious to have a look at the old CTK Exchange archive.
Please do not post there.

Copyright © 1996-2018 Alexander Bogomolny

Search:
Keywords:

Google
Web CTK