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Subject: "convergence"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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koko
guest
May-19-05, 10:15 PM (EST)
 
"convergence"
 
   It appears that the value of z in
z^n = x^n + y^n
converges on max( x, y ) as n increases.
Could somebody please explain why.

Thanks


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
convergence koko May-19-05 TOP
  RE: convergence sfwc May-26-05 1
  RE: convergence koko May-26-05 2
     RE: convergence Graham C May-27-05 5
  RE: convergence Graham C May-27-05 3
  RE: convergence alexb May-27-05 4
  RE: convergence mr_homm Jun-13-05 6

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sfwc
Member since Jun-19-03
May-26-05, 07:39 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #0
 
   This is only true if x and y are not equal. If x = y it converges to 2^(1/n) * x.

Suppose without loss of generality that x > y. Then we have:

x <= z = x * (1 + (y/x)^n)^(1/n) <= x*(1 + (y/x)^n) -> x*(1 + 0) = x as n -> infinity.

So z -> x as n -> infinity as required.

Thankyou

sfwc
<><


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koko
guest
May-26-05, 07:39 PM (EST)
 
2. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #0
 
   I should have added that z, x, y (and in fact also n) can be any real number.
If "convergence" is not the right word, I could also say that the higher the value of n, the closer the value of z to max( x, y ).


Also, it'seems that in general, n, z, x1, x2, x3, ..., xi being real numbers, the higher the value of n, the closer the value of z in

z^n = x1^n + x2^n + x3^n + ... + xi^n

is to max( x1, x2, x3, ..., xi ).


Is this a trivial statement, is it wrong, has it been proved, or is it a conjecture?


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Graham C
Member since Feb-5-03
May-27-05, 02:20 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #2
 
   Take
z^n = x1^n plus x2^n plus x3^n
and assume x2=a*x1, x3=a*b*x1, a,b>1

z^n = x1^n * (1 plus a^n*(1 plus b^n))
--> x1^n * (1 plus (a*b)^n
--> (a*b*x1)^n
and
z --> a*b*x1 = x3 = max(x1,x2,x3)
and so on, nesting any number of variables.

There's no loss of generality in assuming the variables are in ascending order EXCEPT where they may be equal. In that case however you have for k equal variables
z^n=k*x^n
z = x * k^(1/n)
--> x * 1 = x
leading to the same result.



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Graham C
Member since Feb-5-03
May-27-05, 08:52 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #0
 
   Write ax for y.
Then z^n = x^n plus (ax)^n = x^n*(1 plus a^n)

If a > 1, then in the limit as n->inf, (1+a^n) -> a^n
and z^n -> (ax)^n so z -> ax = max(x,y)

If a = 1 then (1 plus a^n) = 2, irrespective of n
and z^n = 2*x^n and z = x*2^(1/n)
In the limit z->x = y.

If a < 1, then in the limit as n->inf, (1+a^n) -> 1
and z^n -> x^n so z -> x = max(x,y)


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alexb
Charter Member
1553 posts
May-27-05, 08:57 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #0
 
   >It appears that the value of z in
>z^n = x^n + y^n
>converges on max( x, y ) as n increases.
>Could somebody please explain why.

Let x >= y, then

2xn >= zn >= xn, or

21/nx >= z >= x.

As n goes to infinity, 1/n approaches 0, and, with it, 21/n approaches 1.


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mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Jun-13-05, 06:58 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: convergence"
In response to message #0
 
   There is an unstated assumption here that x, y, and z are positive real numbers. Even if x and y are positive real, there often exist imaginary or negative solutions for z. In fact, what you have here is not a function at all, but a relation between x, y, and z. It is not single valued unless you assume that z is the positive real n-th root of x^n + y^n.

This is probably what you meant anyway, but it is good to have the assumptions stated explicitly.

By the way, if you are willing to write your equation as

z^n = |x|^n + |y|^n where x and y are real and z is positive real

then you can see an interesting geometric picture of how this limit occurs. Of course, the proofs already given in this thread show that the result is true, and this is NOT a proof, but it is a nice visualization:

Now fix the value of z to be 1 (this merely rescales x and y, and you can undo the rescaling at the end of the process if you wish since all three variables are raised to the same power). For n=2, you have the equation of the unit circle. As n increases, the circle bulges outward and gradually assumes a square shape. The points (x,y) = (0,1), (0,-1), (1,0) and (-1,0) do not move, as the circle is already tangent to the unit'square there. Points on the unit circle where |x| > |y| move to the x=1 or x=-1 sides of the square depending on the sign of x, and those with |y| > |x| similarly go to the y=1 or y=-1 sides of the square. Therefore |y| > |x| implies |y|=1=z, and
|x| > |y| implies |x|=1=z. So z = max(|x|, |y|).

By the way, Graham's proof in response #3 works even if x, y, and z are complex, provided that the conditions on "a" are replaced with conditions on "|a|" and provided we choose the correct n-th root to get z. Then z = x or y, whichever has the larger modulus.


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