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Maxim
Member since Feb-17-03
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Apr-03-04, 11:19 PM (EST) |
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"How many roots?"
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Problem 1: How many complex roots does the equation x^e=e have? Here e is of course exp(1). Problem 2: How many real roots does the equation (1/16)^x=log(1/16,x) have? Here log(a,x) is the logarithm of x to base a. The strict proof for the problem 2 solution is not trivial!
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JJ
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Apr-04-04, 02:32 AM (EST) |
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1. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #0
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Problem 1 e = x^e = e^(e.ln(x)) = e^1 e.ln(x) = 1 ln(x) = 1/e x = e^(1/e)problem 2 log(1/16,x) = ln(x)/ln(1/16) = -ln(x)/ln(16) (1/16)^x = e^(x.ln(1/16)) = e^(-x.ln(16)) e^(-x.ln(16)) = -ln(x)/ln(16) e^(-x.ln(16)) > 0 hence ln(x)<0 then 0 < x < 1 f(x) = e^(-x.ln(16)) + ln(x)/ln(16) from x= 0 to x=1, f(x) is increassing from -infinity to 1. There is one root x=1/2 since : ln(16) = 4.ln(2) e^(-(1/2).4ln(2)) = e^(-2ln(2)) = 1/2² = 1/4 and -ln(1/2)/ln(16) = ln(2)/4ln(2) = 1/4
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Ariyan
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May-09-04, 09:40 PM (EST) |
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3. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #2
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Hello, These problems have been bugging me for quite a long time now. I would appreciate it if anybody could post the answers here. I think the answer for problem 1 is e roots. But I doubt this to be correct. I used that x^n = n has n complex roots. But I think this only applies when n is a natural number and not an irrational number like e. I haven't got very far with problem 2. Actually I haven't got anywhere with problem 2. My respect to maxim for posting these challenging problems. I came up with ideas and did some research that helped me a lot in understanding complex numbers better. But eventually I could not solve the problems. Thank you Ariyan |
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KL_GB
Member since Feb-13-04
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May-14-04, 03:42 PM (EST) |
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4. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #3
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Here is an attempted and incomplete solution. Problem 1. There is an infinite number of solutions in complex space. If the solution S is a complex number of modulus R and angle alpha (on the argand diagram), then: S ^ e has a modulus of R ^ e and angle alpha * e. Setting these equal to e (i.e. modulus e, angle 0) we get solutions S: mod(S) = e^(1/e) arg(S) = 2k.pi./e (where k is an integer) For k = 0 the solution is real. All the solutions lie on a circle in a complex plane, centred on zero, with radius e^(1/e). I think this is the solution to the first problem (but who knows, I may be wrong...). Problem 2: Replace 1/16 with 'a'. LHS is a^x RHS is ln(x)/ln(a) Assume 0<a<1 (which is valid for the actual problem specified). Now we can limit the range of the problem a bit. 1. From the RHS, x must be greater than 0 (because log of zero or negative is invalid). 2. LHS varies from 1 (at x = 0) to 0 (as x gets big). 3. ln(a) is negative (because a < 1). When x > 1, ln(x) is positive, so RHS is negative, so the two sides cannot be equal. When x < a, RHS is greater than 1, so the two sides cannot be equal. Therefore, we can state tha any solution(s) to the problem occur in the range a < x < 1. at x = a, RHS = 1 (and is therefore greater than LHS). at x = 1, RHS = 0 (and is therefore less than LHS). Both sides are continuous and smooth in the range a < x < 1. Therefore, there is an odd number of solutions. You'll notice that I haven't actually found a solution. I believe that for large values of a (~0.9) there is 1 solution, but for small values of a (~0.01) there are 3 solutions. I believe that there are no cases for which there are more than 3 solutions. For a = 1/16 I think there are 3 solutions, 0.25 and 0.5 are two of them. There is another. Not a very good solution of the problem, I'm afraid, but I hope this helps a bit. KL.. KL |
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Maxim
Member since Feb-17-03
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May-15-04, 09:08 PM (EST) |
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5. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #4
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You assume that if x=e^(1/e+2*pi*I*k/e) then x^e=e^(1+2*pi*I*k)=e. But in general (z^a)^b is not the same as z^(a*b): for example, ((-1)^2)^(1/2) is not equal to (-1)^(2*1/2). It's interesting that even some pretty sophisticated computer algebra systems give this answer. I'll just say that Ariyan's idea of having e roots is not entirely unreasonable (even though having 'half a root' is certainly a highly untrivial idea): the equation z^a=b (with variable z) cannot have more than abs(a)^2/Re(a)+1 roots if Re(a)>0. Your solution to problem 2 is correct. In the particular case of a=1/16 we can plot both functions, notice that the curves are symmetrical with respect to the line y=x, and therefore there's a root lying on that line. But since (1/16)^(1/2)=log(1/16,1/2) and (1/16)^(1/4)=log(1/16,1/4), this already gives us three roots (the last two aren't on the line y=x).
What is going on here can be seen in the attached picture; the key point is the slope of the curves at the point of their intersection with y=x. If the exponent decreases faster than the logarithm at this point, then there must be another root at some greater value of x, because eventually logarithm has to go 'down' to -infinity. It turns out that the root of a^x=x can be found explicitly in terms of certain special functions. Define W(x) as the root of W(x)*e^W(x)=x (think of how ln(x) can be introduced as the solution to e^ln(x)=x). W(x) is called the Lambert W function. For example, 1*e^1=e, so W(e)=1. But strictly speaking, since exponent is periodic in the complex plane, W(x) will be multi-valued just as the logarithm. Now it's easy to verify that the solution of a^x=x (for 0<a<1) is x0 = -W(-ln(a))/ln(a) So this is our point on the line y=x where we have a^x0=log(a,x0)=x0. Now we look at the derivatives at this point: diff(a^x,x) = a^x*ln(a) = -W(-ln(a)), diff(log(a,x),x) = 1/(x*ln(a)) = -1/W(-ln(a)) They're, of course, reciprocals, and so they're equal to each other when -W(-ln(a))=-1. This equation can be solved: a0=e^(-e). If a is greater or equal to this value, there will be only one root, otherwise there will be three roots. And 1/16 is very close to e^(-e), but on the side where we have three roots. Note that this is still not a proof, it's more like a heuristic analysis.
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pluto
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Sep-17-05, 06:45 AM (EST) |
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6. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #5
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hello, For problem 1, it might help to see that the question is not well defined... The map exp is not one-to-one in the complex plane, so to define (part of) its inverse -a complex version of logarithm-, one must choose a branch. (Geometrically, exp maps the imaginary axis to the unit circle, so log maps the unit circle to... *some* interval of length 2pi on the imaginary axis, which contains the origin.) Now x^something is e^(something*log x), so here we have 2 or 3 roots depending on our choice. In an ensemble of aleatory choices of a branch, the mean number of roots is about 2.718... (number which happens to be called e, but this has nothing to do with the capitan's age!) |
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mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
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Sep-19-05, 01:14 PM (EST) |
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7. "RE: How many roots?"
In response to message #6
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>hello, > >For problem 1, it might help to see that the question is not >well defined... > This is a good point. I think you can achieve the same result also in a (very slightly) different way without discussing inverse functions explicitly:Start with the solution that KL_GB had for problem 1, and note that it correctly gives all the possible moduli and arguments of solutions. However, of course the modulus-argument plane maps multiply to the real-imaginary plane, so that a strip y <= arg < y+2.pi maps to the entire complex plane. Therefore, KL_GB is partly correct in that there are an infinite number of solutions in the mod-arg plane; but this is not the complex plane, and for any choice of coordinate strip you get only a selection of 2 or 3 of these solutions. The rest of them become "phantom solutions" once you have chosen a strip. > >Now x^something is e^(something*log x), so here we have 2 or >3 roots depending on our choice. In an ensemble of aleatory >choices of a branch, the mean number of roots is about >2.718... (number which happens to be called e, but this has >nothing to do with the capitan's age!) Similarly in terms of strips of the mod-arg plane, there are evenly spaced roots spaced a distance 2pi/e apart along the arg direction, so the expected number of roots in a strip of width 2pi is e. This is just a rephrasing of what you said, in a slightly more geometric language. Thank you for you interesting post. --Stuart Anderson |
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