CTK Exchange
Front Page
Movie shortcuts
Personal info
Awards
Reciprocal links
Terms of use
Privacy Policy

Interactive Activities

Cut The Knot!
MSET99 Talk
Games & Puzzles
Arithmetic/Algebra
Geometry
Probability
Eye Opener
Analog Gadgets
Inventor's Paradox
Did you know?...
Proofs
Math as Language
Things Impossible
My Logo
Math Poll
Other Math sit's
Guest book
News sit's

Recommend this site

Manifesto: what CTK is about Search CTK Buying a book is a commitment to learning Table of content Products to download and subscription Things you can find on CTK Chronology of updates Email to Cut The Knot Recommend this page

CTK Exchange

Subject: "Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences The CTK Exchange High school Topic #370
Reading Topic #370
Scott
guest
Oct-03-07, 00:01 AM (EST)
 
"Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"
 
   I greatly enjoyed getting caught-up on the proofs of the irrationality of the roots of integers...

However, I am troubled by Proof 12. The argument seems to imply more
than is really true -- that the product of two finite decimal expansions cannot be an integer, without using in any critical way that we are working with squares (or higher integer powers). Consider, for example, the product

(2.5) x (0.4)

The suggestion that one handle infinitely repeating decimals by changing the base of the decimal expansions I think is also perhaps disingenuous, in that, in the interesting cases, in essence it reduces to a clumsy way of writing the rational numbers as ordinary fractions.

This line of thinking also seems to suggest that the ability of the
squaring of certain infinite non-repeating decimals to "cancel out" all the decimal places is some kind of miracle. Then again, perhaps it really is!

Thoughts?

Best regards,

Scott.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
2085 posts
Oct-03-07, 00:02 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"
In response to message #0
 
   The point of the argument is that no last non-zero digit when squared turns into a zero. This is a little more than needed indeed, but the argument certainly applies to the squares.

Changing to a different base is also nice. It's not a suggestion to substitute another base for the decimal, in commerce, business and academe. No. It's only a theoretic device to complete the proof.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Oct-03-07, 10:17 AM (EST)
Click to EMail mr_homm Click to send private message to mr_homm Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"
In response to message #1
 
   The above posts piqued my interest in the various proofs that sqrt(2) is irrational. After thinking them over, I have found a new one which does not seem to be equivalent to any of those on the list. It is less "elementary" than most of those, but still rather brief.

In Z/3, 0^2=0, 1^2 = 1 and 2^2 = 1, so there is no element whose square is 2. Now suppose sqrt(2) is rational. Then p/q maps to a = (p mod 3) / (q mod 3). But since reduction mod 3 respects all the arithmetic operations, a^2 = 2 in Z/3, a contradiction.

From this it is easy to see that n^(1/m) is irrational if there exists at least one prime p such that n is not a perfect mth power in Z/p.

This way of proving things is perhaps not as "pretty" as some of the more elementary methods, but makes a nice connection to modular arithmetic, I think.

--Stuart Anderson


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
2085 posts
Oct-03-07, 10:42 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"
In response to message #2
 
   >In Z/3, 0^2=0, 1^2 = 1 and 2^2 = 1, so there is no element
>whose square is 2. Now suppose sqrt(2) is rational. Then
>p/q maps to a = (p mod 3) / (q mod 3). But since reduction
>mod 3 respects all the arithmetic operations, a^2 = 2 in
>Z/3, a contradiction.

It's reasonably elementary, I would say. But the problem is below. While the next paragraph is correct, finding a suitable p does not appear to be simple even for m = 2. Or should I think better?

>From this it is easy to see that n^(1/m) is irrational if
>there exists at least one prime p such that n is not a
>perfect mth power in Z/p.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
mr_homm
Member since May-22-05
Oct-03-07, 12:53 PM (EST)
Click to EMail mr_homm Click to send private message to mr_homm Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Proof #12 of irrationality of square roots"
In response to message #3
 
   I agree that it is not obvious how to find a suitable p. For p=7, 3^2 = 2, so 2 is a square in Z/7, for instance, and the proof would not work there.

However, for prime p, exactly half the nonzero elements of Z/p are squares, so there is a priori a 50% chance of success for each prime. It'should not be a long search, therefore, but still it would be much nicer if some pattern were available to guide one.

It is also true that for any exponent m, the elements of the form a^m form a multiplicitave subgroup in Z/p, so there cannot be more than (p-1)/2 such elements. Again, one has an a priori chance of at least 50% that a given prime p will work.

At the moment, I cannot see a general method for finding primes that work. I will give it'some more thought.

--Stuart Anderson


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

You may be curious to have a look at the old CTK Exchange archive.
Please do not post there.

Copyright © 1996-2018 Alexander Bogomolny

Search:
Keywords:

Google
Web CTK