CTK Exchange
Front Page
Movie shortcuts
Personal info
Awards
Reciprocal links
Terms of use
Privacy Policy

Interactive Activities

Cut The Knot!
MSET99 Talk
Games & Puzzles
Arithmetic/Algebra
Geometry
Probability
Eye Opener
Analog Gadgets
Inventor's Paradox
Did you know?...
Proofs
Math as Language
Things Impossible
My Logo
Math Poll
Other Math sit's
Guest book
News sit's

Recommend this site

Manifesto: what CTK is about |Store| Search CTK Buying a book is a commitment to learning Table of content Things you can find on CTK Chronology of updates Email to Cut The Knot Recommend this page

CTK Exchange

Subject: "Need help/ Basic differentiation"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy     Email this topic to a friend    
Conferences The CTK Exchange High school Topic #282
Reading Topic #282
MPorter
guest
May-02-04, 08:50 AM (EST)
 
"Need help/ Basic differentiation"
 
   I am currently teaching myself basic calculus. The book I am using, Calculus Made Easy, by Silvanus Thompson, differentiates the following problem in a completely different way than I had expected:

y = x -2

Because ( dy / dx ) = nxn-1, I understand that the derivative will be

( dy / dx ) = -2x

But my problem lies in how you get to that derivative.

Now I had expected the problem to be solved in the book in the following way:

y + dy = ( x + dx )-2

y + dy = ( 1 / ( x2 + 2x(dx) + (dx)2))

y + dy = x-2 + 2x-1(dx) + (dx)-2

y + dy = x-2 + 2x-1(dx) - disregard (dx)-2

dy = 2x-1(dx) - remove the function

( dy / dx ) = 2x-1

But the Book solves it in a completely different way:

y + dy = ( x + dx )-2

y + dy = x-2 ( 1 + ( x / dx ))-2

It then proceeds to expand the equation by the binomial theorem, ending up with the same answer.

Why does Thompson do this? Is it not easier to do it the first way rather than the second? I cant understand the logic behind this. He gives no reason for doing it in this way.



  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Need help/ Basic differentiation MPorter May-02-04 TOP
  RE: Need help/ Basic diff sfwc May-03-04 1
     RE: Need help/ Basic diff sfwc May-04-04 2
         RE: Need help/ Basic diff alexb May-04-04 4
     RE: Need help/ Basic diff alexb May-04-04 3
         RE: Need help/ Basic diff MPorter May-05-04 5
             RE: Need help/ Basic diff sfwc May-06-04 6
                 RE: Need help/ Basic diff Tom Young May-08-04 7
             RE: Need help/ Basic diff CSpeed0001 May-10-04 8

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
sfwc
Member since Jun-19-03
May-03-04, 03:49 PM (EST)
Click to EMail sfwc Click to send private message to sfwc Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #0
 
   As written, what you've sent seems to contain a mistake. But it is hard to tell because the way you have written it is so ambiguous. From thwe context, you seem to be using powers, and you may be unaware of the standard notation for this in a text document. it is usual to write 'a to the power of b' as a^b. So for example x^2 = x*x.
I shall use that notation throughout.

>Because ( dy / dx ) = nxn-1, I understand that the
>derivative will be
>
>( dy / dx ) = -2x.
This seems odd. From what i can glean you are differentiating x^(-2), and the derivative of that is -2*x^(-3). But it'seems that this is just a typo.

>y + dy = ( 1 / ( x2 + 2x(dx) + (dx)2))
>
>y + dy = x-2 + 2x-1(dx) + (dx)-2

This is where the problem seems to lie. It appears that you are saying:
y + dy = 1/(x^2 + 2*x*dx + (dx)^2)
=> y + dy = x^(-2) + 2*x^(-1) dx + (dx)^(-2)
which does not follow.

>( dy / dx ) = 2x-1
This is wrong... but it may be a typo again.

>Why does Thompson do this? Is it not easier to do it the
>first way rather than the second? I cant understand the
>logic behind this. He gives no reason for doing it in this
>way.
There are, of course, many ways to differentiate x^(-2). You can do it as in the book, or represent it as (1/x)^2 and use the chain rule, or as e^((-2) * ln x) and use the chain rule again, or say:
0 = d/dx(1) = d/dx(x^2 * x^(-2))
= d/dx(x^2) * x^(-2) + x^2 * (d/dx(x^(-2)))
= 2*x^(-1) + x^2 * d/dx(x^(-2))
and rearrange.

I'm sure there are many other ways, and all have advantages and disadvantages (for example some of the above do not work for all values of x, but only for positive or for nonzero x). I'm sure Thompson had a good reason for doing it in the way he did: It illustrates a standard way to get derivatives, and shows the power of the binomial theorem.

Thankyou

sfwc
<><

PS Part of your message got randomly turned into a smiley. This has happened to me before, too. The way to avoid it is to click the 'Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons in your message' box at the bottom of the posting form.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sfwc
Member since Jun-19-03
May-04-04, 10:33 AM (EST)
Click to EMail sfwc Click to send private message to sfwc Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #1
 
   Hmmm... a lot of my message seems to have been 'randomly turned into smileys'. This is despite the fact that I checked the 'Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons in your message' box. For those who wish to read it, each such smiley was originally an x followed by an (

Does anybody know what else I could do to avoid random smileys?

sfwc
<><


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
1270 posts
May-04-04, 10:49 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #2
 
   >Hmmm... a lot of my message seems to have been 'randomly
>turned into smileys'. This is despite the fact that I
>checked the 'Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons
>in your message' box. For those who wish to read it, each
>such smiley was originally an x followed by an (
>
>Does anybody know what else I could do to avoid random
>smileys?
>

I have removed the smiley feature from the forum altogether. There's nothing I can do with the smileys that have already crawled in, but I hope that the hole has been shut tight. I have also reposted your reply (naturally under my name) so that a more readable version of your original your message is now available.

With apologies,
Alex


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
alexb
Charter Member
1270 posts
May-04-04, 10:37 AM (EST)
Click to EMail alexb Click to send private message to alexb Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #1
 
   >As written, what you've sent seems to contain a mistake. But
>it is hard to tell because the way you have written it is so
>ambiguous. From thwe context, you seem to be using powers,
>and you may be unaware of the standard notation for this in
>a text document. it is usual to write 'a to the power of b'
>as a^b. So for example x^2 = x*x.
>I shall use that notation throughout.
>
>>Because ( dy / dx ) = nxn-1, I understand that the
>>derivative will be
>>
>>( dy / dx ) = -2x.
>This seems odd. From what i can glean you are
>differentiating x^(-2), and the derivative of that is
>-2*x^(-3). But it'seems that this is just a typo.
>
>>y + dy = ( 1 / ( x2 + 2x(dx) + (dx)2))
>>
>>y + dy = x-2 + 2x-1(dx) + (dx)-2
>
>This is where the problem seems to lie. It appears that you
>are saying:
>y + dy = 1/(x^2 + 2*x*dx + (dx)^2)
>=> y + dy = x^(-2) + 2*x^(-1) dx + (dx)^(-2)
>which does not follow.
>
>>( dy / dx ) = 2x-1
>This is wrong... but it may be a typo again.
>
>>Why does Thompson do this? Is it not easier to do it the
>>first way rather than the second? I cant understand the
>>logic behind this. He gives no reason for doing it in this
>>way.
>There are, of course, many ways to differentiate x^(-2). You
>can do it as in the book, or represent it as (1/x)^2 and use
>the chain rule, or as e^((-2) * ln x) and use the chain rule
>again, or say:
>0 = d/dx(1) = d/dx(x^2 * x^(-2))
>= d/dx(x^2) * x^(-2) + x^2 * (d/dx(x^(-2)))
>= 2*x^(-1) + x^2 * d/dx(x^(-2))
>and rearrange.
>
>I'm sure there are many other ways, and all have advantages
>and disadvantages (for example some of the above do not work
>for all values of x, but only for positive or for nonzero
>x). I'm sure Thompson had a good reason for doing it in the
>way he did: It illustrates a standard way to get
>derivatives, and shows the power of the binomial theorem.
>
>Thankyou
>
>sfwc
><><
>
>PS Part of your message got randomly turned into a smiley.
>This has happened to me before, too. The way to avoid it is
>to click the 'Check if you DO NOT wish to use emotion icons
>in your message' box at the bottom of the posting form.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
MPorter
guest
May-05-04, 07:49 PM (EST)
 
5. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #3
 
   I understand the use of the chain rule as a good solution to the problem, for i can now see the falseness of my argument. However, in your usage of the chain rule, why do you use e, the perfect base, to solve the problem? What is the significance of e in calculus? And how do you apply it to solve differentials?

Thanks


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
sfwc
Member since Jun-19-03
May-06-04, 11:34 AM (EST)
Click to EMail sfwc Click to send private message to sfwc Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #5
 
   The reason is that the function e^x has the remarkable property that d/dx(e^x) = e^x. e is unique and significant in calculus for that reason. This fact can be used to evaluate some particular derivatives:
d/dx(a^x) = d/dx(e^(x*ln(a)) = ln(a) * e^(x*ln(a)) = ln(a)*a^x
among others.

It is also useful when you are looking for a solution to a differential equation in a function y. Say you want to solve dy/dx = a*y. Then you know a solution already: y = e^(a*x). This idea can be greatly generalised and I'm sure you'll see some useful applications later.

Thankyou

sfwc
<><


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Tom Young
guest
May-08-04, 10:33 AM (EST)
 
7. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #6
 
  
e also has the remarkable property such that
e^(PI * i) = -1
Where PI = 3.1415... and i = (-1)^(1/2).

Have fun with calculus


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
CSpeed0001
Member since Feb-19-03
May-10-04, 09:36 PM (EST)
Click to EMail CSpeed0001 Click to send private message to CSpeed0001 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Need help/ Basic diff"
In response to message #5
 
   I'd like to start by saying that "Calculus Made Easy" was instrumental in my current success as a college student.

That being said, I think that the other way of expressing derivatives is a little easier to work with sometimes. Now, if this is confusing, please disregard it. The idea is that you're finding the slope of the tangent line. So you're looking for the change in y (or f(x)) divided by the change in x. So the formula goes as follows:

(d/dx)f(x)=/deltax

AFAIK he doesn't use that notation in that book. Calculus was such a hard class for me that I had to attack it from many different perspectives. That is why the book helped me, and that is why I've included another way here.

I've yet so see a good proof of this, but this is the significance of base e that I've seen (BTW int means integral or antiderivative):

int(1/x)=ln(x)

This is apparently the way the natural log is defined. Since the natural log is log base e, this is also the way e is defined. So it would seem as though the reason e and ln are so important to calculus is because they wouldn't have a definition without it.

On a personal note, I regard learning calculus as a turning point in my life. That was the first time I started regarding math as an art rather than a fairly simple series of algorithms. This feeling was ephasized when I learned about sequences and series, and then even more in differential equations.

Either way, if it'seems kinda hard, that's normal. Almost everyone I know had a hard time learning calculus. I promise that you will be happy that you learned it though. If you can teach yourself basic calculus, please go further. I think you'll be very happy with what you learn.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

You may be curious to have a look at the old CTK Exchange archive.
Please do not post there.

|Front page| |Contents|

Copyright © 1996-2018 Alexander Bogomolny

73187533