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Subject: "Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Grapes
Member since Feb-8-08
Feb-08-08, 06:21 PM (EST)
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"Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
 
   Over at BAUT, we've been reading the Pythagorean Theorem page
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/index.shtml

Very nice, and I appreciate all the work that has been done. But a question has come up, about the following proof, which doesn't seem to appear on the webpage in this form:

Take right triangle ABC with opposite sides a, b, and c, C the right angle.

Drop a perpendicular from C to the side c. That divides c into two parts, which are easily shown to measure b cos A and a cos B, by the definition of cosine. In other words,
c = b cos A + a cos B
But, from the original triangle, it's easy to see that cos A = b/c and cos B = a/c so
c = b (b/c) + a (a/c)

There is a comment at the webpage that says that no trigonometric proof is possible. Other than the basic definition of cosine, this proof does not use any trig identities (many of which are based upon the Pythagorean theorem of course). It is equivalent, geometrically, to a couple of the proofs, I think, but a lot of the proofs differ by subtle steps.

The question then is: Is that a trigonometric proof of the Pythagorean Theorem?


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? alexbadmin Feb-08-08 2
     RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? Grapes Feb-08-08 3
         RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? alexbadmin Feb-09-08 4
             RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? Grapes Feb-10-08 5
                 RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? alexbadmin Feb-11-08 6
                     RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? Guoping Zeng Apr-10-08 8
                         RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not? alexbadmin Apr-10-08 9

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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2214 posts
Feb-08-08, 08:00 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #0
 
   > The question then is: Is that a
> trigonometric proof of the Pythagorean
> Theorem?
In all honesty I do not know. The reason you may call it trigonometric is the apparent reliance on the definition of the cosine. However, our ability to define cosine (or perhaps use it) is conditioned on the properties of similar triangles. So the essential fact in your derivation is that the ratio of a leg to the hypotenuse in a right triangle depends only on the angle, not the size of the triangle. In other words, it is the same for all similar triangles. But from the similarity of triangles you get directly that the projection of leg a on the hypotenuse is a²/c and that of b is b²/c. So that the appearance of cosine is transitional and is not quite necessary. The proof is of the same variety as ## 6, 7, 8, 41.

But you are right in that some proofs only differ in triffle details. So that perhaps your proof deserves to be considered on its own merits as a proof. But think of it, what makes cosine a trigonometric function? Surely not a plain definition alone but rather a fact that this is a part of a whole branch of tools and activities.

When I said that a trigonometric proof is impossible the idea was that the trigonometric relations heavily depend on the Pythagorean theorem and, for that reason, can't serve as a basis for a proof of the latter. But, unless you use a trigonometric relation, as opposed to using just a definition, should we call the derivation triginometric? I do not know.

I can live with whatever the math community may decide. Ambiguity, too, won't impair my sleep.



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Grapes
Member since Feb-8-08
Feb-08-08, 07:33 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #2
 
   >When I said that a trigonometric proof is impossible the
>idea was that the trigonometric relations heavily depend on
>the Pythagorean theorem and, for that reason, can't serve as
>a basis for a proof of the latter. But, unless you use a
>trigonometric relation, as opposed to using just a
>definition, should we call the derivation triginometric? I
>do not know.

I got the impression that you were quoting or paraphrasing an old comment from someone else, too. I thought it was interesting.

It's true the proof doesn't use identities (and how could it, most of them take advantage of the pythagorean theorem at some point), but it does use basic trig relationships--similar triangles--even if we were to sidestep the definition of cosine.

The discussion has been along the lines of what constitutes a trig proof, as opposed to algebraic or geometric--since they're pretty inter-related and each can be expressed in terms of the other, more or less. Now, a "graphical" proof is probably not too ambiguous, it's usually "I know it when I see it."

Anyway, what are the chances of adding it to the list? :)


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alexbadmin
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2214 posts
Feb-09-08, 02:43 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #3
 
   >>When I said that a trigonometric proof is impossible the
>>idea was that the trigonometric relations heavily depend on
>>the Pythagorean theorem and, for that reason, can't serve as
>>a basis for a proof of the latter. But, unless you use a
>>trigonometric relation, as opposed to using just a
>>definition, should we call the derivation triginometric? I
>>do not know.
>
>I got the impression that you were quoting or paraphrasing
>an old comment from someone else, too. I thought it was
>interesting.

Yes, Loomis mentions this in his book.

>It's true the proof doesn't use identities (and how could
>it, most of them take advantage of the pythagorean theorem
>at some point), but it does use basic trig
>relationships--similar triangles--even if we were to
>sidestep the definition of cosine.

So, this is not what the discussion is about. OK.
>
>The discussion has been along the lines of what constitutes
>a trig proof, as opposed to algebraic or geometric--since
>they're pretty inter-related and each can be expressed in
>terms of the other, more or less. Now, a "graphical" proof
>is probably not too ambiguous, it's usually "I know it when
>I see it."

In my view, a proof deserves to be referred to as "trigonometric" if without trigonometry it makes no sense. I do not believe your derivation passes this test. Instead of using cosine, state simply the proportions that follow from the similarity of triangles. That the ratios involved got honored with a notation used widely is irrelevant to the proof.

Another question to ask is what constitutes a distinct proof.

>Anyway, what are the chances of adding it to the list? :)

If you refer to my list, zero.



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Grapes
Member since Feb-8-08
Feb-10-08, 09:28 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #4
 
   >In my view, a proof deserves to be referred to as
>"trigonometric" if without trigonometry it makes no sense. I
>do not believe your derivation passes this test. Instead of
>using cosine, state simply the proportions that follow from
>the similarity of triangles. That the ratios involved got
>honored with a notation used widely is irrelevant to the
>proof.
>
>Another question to ask is what constitutes a distinct
>proof.

I'm definitely not claiming it is a distinct proof. Most of the proofs are interesting variations, though.

I think it is most nearly the same as entry #6, but by using the cosine definition, it becomes more succinct.

>If you refer to my list, zero.

Maybe a note added to #6? :)


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alexbadmin
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2214 posts
Feb-11-08, 09:31 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #5
 
   >I think it is most nearly the same as entry #6, but by using
>the cosine definition, it becomes more succinct.

It does acquire a distinct flavor. I can't make my mind about the taste, though.

>Maybe a note added to #6? :)

This would make sense, yes. Thank you.


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Guoping Zeng
guest
Apr-10-08, 01:19 PM (EST)
 
8. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #6
 
   I wote a note long time ago about the trignometric proof of Pythagorean theorem, which was similar to 1. I didn't know this post until I was directed by Prof. Bogomolny. I think we should change our statement "There are no trignometric proofs of the Pythagorean Theorem" to something like "There are no trigometric proofs of the Pythagorean theorem that use any trignometric identities such as the Pythagorean Identity". On the other hand, trignometry can be developed totally independent of the Pythagorean theorem.

>>I think it is most nearly the same as entry #6, but by using
>>the cosine definition, it becomes more succinct.
>
>It does acquire a distinct flavor. I can't make my mind
>about the taste, though.
>
>>Maybe a note added to #6? :)
>
>This would make sense, yes. Thank you.


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alexbadmin
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2214 posts
Apr-10-08, 01:49 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Pythagorean Theorem Proof -- Trig or Not?"
In response to message #8
 
   I believe that the designation Trigonometry stands for or is a shorthand of Theory of Trigonmetry. The latter has a more comprehensive feeling and clearly could not be meaningfully reduced to a few function definitions. Trigonometry is a theory. The essence of trigonometry, as that of any other theory, is derivation built on axioms and definitions.

In this particular case of a proof of the Pythagorean theorem, a simple proof based on the similarity of triangles is quite self-contained. Introducing cosine into the proof does not even simplify it. cosine just embodies the fact of similarity and nothing less; its use modifies the verbiage of the proof. There is nothing trigonometric about this change.


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