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Subject: "Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences The CTK Exchange College math Topic #725
Reading Topic #725
Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Feb-10-10, 02:27 PM (EST)
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"Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
 
   Two circles (O1), (O2) intersect each other at A, B. Two circles (Oa), (Ob) centered at any point O: (Oa) passing A, (Ob) passing B.
Other than A: (Oa) intersects (O1), (O2) at A1, A2 respectively.
Other than B: (Ob) intersects (O1), (O2) at B1, B2 respectively.
Ra, Rb are radii of (Oa), (Ob) respectively.

Please prove:
1. (Oa) cuts lines A1B1 and A2B2 at two equal segments. Similarly with (Ob).
2. A1A2/B1B2 = Ra/Rb


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles mpdlc Feb-11-10 1
     RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Feb-11-10 3
         RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles mpdlc Feb-12-10 5
             RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Feb-12-10 6
  RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Feb-11-10 4
  RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles Bui Quang Tuan Feb-12-10 7
     RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Feb-12-10 8
         RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles Bui Quang Tuan Feb-23-10 9
             RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Feb-23-10 10
         RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles mpdlc Sep-22-10 11
             RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Sep-23-10 12
                 RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles mpdlc Sep-23-10 13
                     RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Sep-23-10 14
                         RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles mpdlc Sep-23-10 15
                             RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Sep-23-10 16
             RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles alexbadmin Sep-23-10 17

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mpdlc
guest
Feb-11-10, 05:25 PM (EST)
 
1. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #0
 
   Since the two circle are concentric

Points B1, A1, A and B form an isosceles trapezoid being the parallel sides A1 A and B1B and analogically points B2, A2, A and B form another trapezoid sides B2B and AA2 paralell.
Since sides AB is common to the two isosceles trapezoid, then A2B2 is equal length to side A1B1 and the ratio of chords A1A to B1B must be the same as the ratio of the two concentric circles.


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Feb-11-10, 11:29 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #1
 
   I posted solution at

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/FourCrossingCircles.shtml


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mpdlc
Member since Mar-12-07
Feb-12-10, 08:03 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #3
 
   Thank you Alex, for giving me the full credit for the complete solution of the problem posted by our friend Bui Quang Tuan. But the second part is fully Alex made, my solution which is nor as elegant nor math knowledgeable as your, is seen better in the included drawing.

I started calling c the center of the concentric circles I realized that AcB is equal to A2cB2 and A1cB1 since the three triangles are equals since theirs sides equals, so by rotating with center in c such angle A1cB1, points A1 and A2 will be on the radii cB1 and cB2 respectively, therefore chords A1A2 and B1B2 have to be proportional to Ra and Rb

mpdlc

Attachments
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/htdocs/dcforum/User_files/4b7536da090a8114.zip

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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Feb-12-10, 08:17 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #5
 
   I did not have time to look at the problem until you post. Actually the applet shows this is where I began. At the end, it was too short to split the credit.


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alexbadmin
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2614 posts
Feb-11-10, 11:30 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #0
 
   A very elegant problem. Thank you.


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Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Feb-12-10, 09:20 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #0
 
   Dear Alex and Mariano Perez de la Cruz,

Thank you for nice and short solution!
Please note that this simple interesting fact I have found after reading the article:

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/ParallelLinesInCrossingCircles.shtml

Instead of two parallel lines I take two concentric circles and get results!

Best regards,
Bui Quang Tuan


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Feb-12-10, 09:28 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #7
 
   >Please note that this simple interesting fact I have found
>after reading the article:

Ah, so I guessed.

Could you please have a look at

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/CirclesOnPerpBisector.shtml

and

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/ParallelToBase.shtml

If there is a simple solution it escapes me.

Thank you.


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Bui Quang Tuan
Member since Jun-23-07
Feb-23-10, 12:19 PM (EST)
Click to EMail Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to send private message to Bui%20Quang%20Tuan Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #8
 
   >Could you please have a look at
>
>https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/CirclesOnPerpBisector.shtml
>
>and
>
>https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/ParallelToBase.shtml
>
>If there is a simple solution it escapes me.
>
>Thank you.

Dear Alex,
I think we can generalize the fact as following:

Given two circles (O1), (O2) with two external tangent lines eT1, eT2 and two internal tangent lines iT1, iT2. The circle (O) is tangent with both (O1) and (O2).

1. Both internal tangent case:
If (O) is internal tangent with (O1) and (O2) then (O) cuts two internal tangent lines iT1, iT2 at four points and there are two lines (each connected two from these four points) parallel with two external tangent lines eT1, eT2.

2. One internal, one external tangent case:
If (O) is external tangent with (O1) and internal tangent with (O2) then (O) cuts two external tangent lines eT1, eT2 at four points and there are two lines (each connected two from these four points) parallel with two internal tangent lines iT1, iT2.

I think you can express the facts in better ways.
I stil not found proofs for these facts.
Best regards,
Bui Quang Tuan


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Feb-23-10, 04:01 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #9
 
   Dear Bui Quang Tuan:

Thank you for looking into that.

> I think we can generalize the fact as following

You are very likely right. I still do not have any idea of how to approach these problems.

All the best,
Alex


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mpdlc
Member since Mar-12-07
Sep-22-10, 04:35 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #8
 
   Dear Alex,

I submit to your always helpful review my approach to Mr. J. Marshall Unger Theorem, since we, the engineers, tend to be too much simplistic,... and sometime simplicity it can be deceiving.

The approach It is based on Feuerbach Theorem and Inversion.

https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/FeuerbachProof.shtml

To clarify, I summarize the rationality of the attached sketch, somewhat untidy, my old CAD software it just like me, too old and ill fitted for Geometry.

1) We are given to circles ( I ) and (P) the two common exterior tangents concurrent at A

2) We draw just one of the other two common interior tangents to keep clear the drawing

3) We draw also a parallel to one of the interior tangent that will be tangent to circle (P).
Using same notation we will call B and C the intersection of this parallel with the original exterior tangents.

4) So we end having the a triangle ABC in which ( I ) is the incircle, and we will have another Triangle AMN in which ( P ) will be its incircle

5) If we draw the Feuerbach circle for the AMN triangle. The resulting cicle will be tangent to circles ( I ) and (P) as per Feuerbach Theorem

6) Since Feuerbach circle cut the exterior tangent at midpoints of the sides AM and AN we called F1 and F2 line F1F2 is parallel to interior tangent MN.

Unfortunately our drawn Feuerbach circle it is not tangent to the circles (I) (internally) and (P) (externally) but on the reverse.

7) To solve that we will made an inversion, taking A as the center of inversion and radius of inversion such, that the inversion circle cut orthogonally our Feuerbach circle, so it will remain unaltered.

8) Now after inversion circles ( I ) and (P) will became circles ( i ) an ( p ), which are well known homothetic to ( I ) and (P) with same homothecy ratio and center A. and will be both tangent to the unaltered Feuerbach circle.

Therefore by the properties of the homothecy the new interior tangent mn which obviously remain parallel to F1F2 and to BC

mpdlc

Attachments
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/htdocs/dcforum/User_files/4c9a6e577cd4e2c0.zip

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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Sep-23-10, 05:20 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #11
 
   Dear Mariano,

could you please supply a link to Marshall Ungar's theorem. Just tp save time.

Thank you,
Alex


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mpdlc
guest
Sep-23-10, 06:03 AM (EST)
 
13. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #12
 
   Alex,

I took from your reference link at the bottom post #8 of this subject.

References

1. J. Marshall Unger, A new proof of a "hard but important" Sangaku problem, Forum Geometricorum, 10 (2010) 7--13.

Anyway my proof I think need your always helping hand to fulfill the mathematics standards.


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Sep-23-10, 06:20 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #13
 
   Dear Mariano,

could you please provide a link to "this subject".


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mpdlc
guest
Sep-23-10, 07:41 AM (EST)
 
15. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #14
 
   As I said I got from

https://forumgeom.fau.edu/FG2010volume10/FG201002.pdf
page 8 Theorem 1

and from
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/CirclesOnPerpBisector.shtml
https://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curriculum/Geometry/ParallelToBase.shtml#Unger

I thought a case where to use the Feuerbach Theorem


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Sep-23-10, 07:42 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #15
 
   Thank you.


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alexbadmin
Charter Member
2614 posts
Sep-23-10, 07:33 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Concentric Circles In Crossing Circles"
In response to message #11
 
   Aha, got it. Very good.

I am sure Feuerbach theorem is quite relevant to the problem. However, the resulting circle must path through B and C. This, probably, follows because you deal with homotheties. Very likely. With this caveat, there is another point: what you showed is that if one of the common internal tangents is parallel to the base there is circle (O). Now we also need a converse.


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