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CTK Exchange
alexb
Charter Member
2228 posts |
Feb-17-04, 02:38 PM (EST) |
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1. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #0
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>There are identical twins. One's name is Jon. One always >lies and one always tells the truth. So they are not quite identical. >I have to ask one of the brothers one 3 word question to >find out both who's jon and who's the liar. I am pretty sure that there is no such question. On the other hand, there is a 3 word question whose answer reveals who is Jon; and there is another 3 word question whose answer reveals who is the liar. (But you must stipulate that only one of the brothers is Jon.) >Any genius's out there who can figure this out, I certainly >could not.:7 This puzzles appears on pp. 42-44 of R. Smullyan's 5000 B.C. and Other Philosophical Fantasies. >Everyone seems to know the answer except for me. This is probably because they read the book. Why do not you? As a hint, the two questions mentioned above have the property that when you ask either one of the questions you can find a correct answer to the other. |
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Graham C
Member since Feb-5-03
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Dec-11-04, 07:41 AM (EST) |
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9. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #1
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> >I am pretty sure that there is no such question. Isn't one way of envisaging this: Make a table showing the answer you get. if the___________If you picked liar is________Jon______the other Jon___________?__________? the other______?__________? To satisfy both questions you must one cell must be different from the other three. But a single question can only distinguish between the rows OR the columns. Thus 'Are you Jon?' gives if the___________If you picked liar is________Jon______the other Jon___________No__________No the other_____Yes_________Yes 'Does Jon lie?' gives if the___________If you picked liar is________Jon______the other Jon___________No__________Yes the other______No__________Yes and so on.
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Graham C
Member since Feb-5-03
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Dec-11-04, 10:36 AM (EST) |
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11. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #9
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I should have added: If you ask both questions in succession then you get four combinations. No,no - you picked Jon and Jon is the liar No,yes - you did not pick Jon, and Jon is the liar Yes,no - you picked Jon, but Jon is not the liar Yes,yes - you did not pick Jon and Jon is not the liar Or, as a table if the_____________If you picked liar is__________Jon________the other Jon___________No,No_______No,Yes the other______Yes,No_______No,No |
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alexb
Charter Member
2228 posts |
Feb-19-04, 11:49 AM (EST) |
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3. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #2
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>I figured out the question. It would be Does Jon Lie? If you are interested in who is Jon, that's the question. However, if you are concerned with whether Jon is a liar, you should look for another question. >Yeah only took me a whole week You did eat, did not you?
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schizophoenix
Member since Jan-14-04
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Apr-04-04, 01:43 PM (EST) |
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5. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #0
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just a thought - i think the best you can do here is to ask "jon, am i?" if you get a response you know both who jon is and who the liar is. if you do not get a response you know who jon is =) am i cheating? |
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quintopia

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Dec-03-04, 06:29 PM (EST) |
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6. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #5
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schizophoenix: Your method will not work. If Jon is the liar, answering would reveal that he is Jon. Because he is a liar, he will not say anything to avoid admitting this. Thus, you will receive no answer, and will not know the answer to either question. |
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rewboss

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Dec-11-04, 07:41 AM (EST) |
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10. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #8
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>i know what it is. the question would be does john lie? That will only tell you if the person you are addressing is Jon or not, but not the identity of the liar. Any question with a yes/no answer won't work, because there are only two possible answers -- but we have four combinations to work with. Calling the twins A and B, the combinations are: A is Jon, A is the liar A is Jon, B is the liar B is Jon, A is the liar B is Jon, B is the liar Whatever question it is, it has to be open-ended. |
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Bigboss

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Jan-09-05, 11:57 PM (EST) |
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14. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #13
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How about no answer at all? What if they are partially deaf, or do not respond to a certain range of frequencies? How about replying to the question only if they think you were polite enough?You ask the twin a single question to derive 2 elements, identity and disposition towards the truth. No question can "force" them to address both elements. |
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Graham C
Member since Feb-5-03
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Jan-11-05, 04:22 PM (EST) |
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17. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #16
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>"You twins, Jon?" is a single question, in the same way "You >are twins, Jon" is a single sentence. The matter of it >engaging 2 elements is different. It's not actually a sentence at all. Nor, formally, is it a question. If it were one sentence, that wouldn't mean it was one question: it's quite easy to formulate several questions in one sentence. Moreover it doesn't work anyway. If you happen to ask the liar and he says 'No, and my name is Fred' - which is likely - where are you? You know he's the liar, and his name therefore is not Fred, but that doesn't prove it is or isn't Jon.
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rewboss

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Jan-12-05, 08:14 AM (EST) |
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19. "RE: A Riddle"
In response to message #17
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In fact, it is both a question and a sentence. Just because it ha | | | | |
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