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Subject: "Monty Hall Problem"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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linkdon
Member since Apr-29-02
Apr-29-02, 03:29 PM (EST)
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"Monty Hall Problem"
 
   I recently read the book _The Man Who Loved Only Numbers_ by Paul Hoffman (the story of the prolific mathematician Paul Erdős). In his book, Hoffman mentions the Monty Hall problem and the fact that Erdős just couldn't believe the answer that Marilyn vos Savant gave in her weekly column in Parade magazine. Well, neither could I, and even after reading many web sites on the topic, including this one, I still believe she had it wrong.

Summary: We have 3 doors with a car behind one (the prize) and goats behind the other two (non-prizes). You pick one of the doors; Monty Hall then opens one of the remaining doors with a goat behind it (he never opens the door with the prize). The issue is: do you stick with your original choice or switch.

Marilyn says you should switch, as do many of the sites I've visited, claiming a 2/3 probability of win if you switch vs. 1/3 if you don't. The case analysis that Marilyn did is shown in Hoffman's book, and I believe it is flawed. She combined the two different action options of my Case A into a single option.

My decomposition of cases and their outcomes below shows that the probability of winning is the same (50%) whether you switch or not. The critical case is Case A in which the host (Monty) has two different doors he can open.

Here's my analysis:

(Note: I apologize for the clumsy table format, but having it in tabular form makes it much clearer. I tried html but couldn't get it to work correctly, and extra spaces are automatically deleted.)

I select Door #1, but I consider all cases of prize arrangement, so the same analysis applies for any initially selected door.

Option 1: Choose Door & Always Switch:
_____|______ Door ______| ___________Actions__________ | _______
Case |__1__|___2__|__3 _|_ 1stPick | HostOpens | 2ndPick _| Outcome
A ___| Car _| Goat_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 2 ___|___ 3 ___|__ Lose
A ___| Car _| Goat_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 3 ___|___ 2 ___|__ Lose
B ___| Goat |_ Car_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 3 ___|___ 2 ___|__ Win
C ___| Goat | Goat_| Car _| ___ 1 __|_____ 2 ___|___ 3 ___|__ Win


Option 2: Choose Door & Always Stick with It:
_____|______ Door ______| ___________Actions__________ | _______
Case |__1__|___2__|__3 _|_ 1stPick | HostOpens | 2ndPick _| Outcome
A ___| Car _| Goat_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 2 ___|___ 1 ___|__ Win
A ___| Car _| Goat_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 3 ___|___ 1 ___|__ Win
B ___| Goat |_ Car_| Goat | ___ 1 __|_____ 3 ___|___ 1 ___|__ Lose
C ___| Goat | Goat_| Car _| ___ 1 __|_____ 2 ___|___ 1 ___|__ Lose

For both options, the probability of win is 1/2.

How is my analysis flawed?

Thanks,

Don Link
Columbia, MD


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Monty Hall Problem linkdon Apr-29-02 TOP
  RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Apr-29-02 1
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Monty Jul-17-08 70
         RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Jul-18-08 71
             RE: Monty Hall Problem Monty Jul-30-08 73
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Jul-31-08 74
  RE: Monty Hall Problem a_tattletale Apr-29-02 2
     RE: Monty Hall Problem linkdon Apr-30-02 3
         RE: Monty Hall Problem Psychlogic May-01-02 4
             RE: Monty Hall Problem jrr7 May-03-02 5
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem Trent Tatro May-05-02 6
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Alan Cooper May-10-02 7
                         RE: Monty Hall Problem anon May-15-02 8
                             RE: Monty Hall Problem bluediamond May-15-02 9
                                 RE: Monty Hall Problem The Pianist Jul-29-02 10
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem The Pianist Jul-30-02 12
                                         RE: Monty Hall Problem Ian Marshall Aug-07-03 29
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Peter Stikker Jan-10-05 58
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem CapriRS302 Jan-10-05 59
                                         RE: Monty Hall Problem Peter Feb-07-05 61
                             RE: Monty Hall Problem Don Greenwell Jul-31-03 25
                                 RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Jul-31-03 26
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Vladimir Aug-11-03 30
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Michael Klipper Jul-29-02 11
                         RE: Monty Hall Problem jman_red Jul-31-02 13
             RE: Monty Hall Problem The Pianist Aug-01-02 14
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem OzExplorer Aug-02-02 15
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Jack Wert Aug-02-02 16
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Sep-15-04 36
  RE: Monty Hall Problem Whymme Aug-04-02 17
     RE: Monty Hall Problem aris Aug-07-02 18
  here's some logic jeremy Aug-21-02 19
     RE: here's some logic jman_red Aug-22-02 20
         simplification into two games mathsonthebrain Aug-23-02 21
             Two decision trees Subjugator Aug-27-02 23
                 RE: Two decision trees brash barbaloot Oct-09-04 42
             simplification simplification Joshua Aug-29-02 24
  Is this still being discussed? Whymme Aug-25-02 22
     RE: Is this still being discussed? Vladimir Aug-02-03 27
  RE: Monty Hall Problem MJ Aug-05-03 28
  RE: Monty Hall Problem quinn@mit.edu Oct-04-03 31
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Pat Oct-06-03 32
  RE: Monty Hall Problem John de Pillis Aug-30-04 33
  RE: Monty Hall Problem webwiz-lv Sep-04-04 34
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Carl Wilson Sep-14-04 35
         RE: Monty Hall Problem Dave Dorn Sep-23-04 37
             RE: Monty Hall Problem rewboss Sep-25-04 38
             RE: Monty Hall Problem seesall Sep-26-04 39
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem Solomon English Oct-04-04 40
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem seesall Oct-04-04 41
  RE: Monty Hall Problem Beth Oct-25-04 43
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-26-04 44
         RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Oct-26-04 45
             RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Oct-27-04 46
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-27-04 47
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Oct-27-04 48
                         RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-27-04 49
                             RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Oct-28-04 50
                                 RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-29-04 51
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Oct-30-04 53
                                         RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-31-04 54
                                             RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Oct-31-04 55
                                             RE: Monty Hall Problem Ramsey_KJ Oct-31-04 56
                                             RE: Monty Hall Problem Seesall Nov-01-04 57
                                 RE: Monty Hall Problem Paul Jennison Oct-29-04 52
                                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Abhishek Sharma Feb-22-05 62
  RE: Monty Hall Problem haamu Jan-15-05 60
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Leu Mar-02-05 63
  RE: Monty Hall Problem HELEN TSAI Oct-05-05 64
     RE: Monty Hall Problem Andrew Oct-18-05 65
         RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Oct-18-05 66
             RE: Monty Hall Problem Michael Frame Oct-25-05 67
                 RE: Monty Hall Problem alexb Oct-25-05 68
                     RE: Monty Hall Problem Marcus Bizony Dec-14-07 69
                         RE: Monty Hall Problem scottiemac Jul-24-08 72
  RE: Monty Hall Problem 52-Card Monty Aug-05-08 75

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alexb
Charter Member
2250 posts
Apr-29-02, 03:42 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-02 AT 03:55 PM (EST)
 
To start with, before the first pick has been made, there were 3 cases:




car goat goat
goat car goat
goat goat car

How did you manage to get 4 cases after the pick?

If you decided to distinguish goats at thi stage, why not to distinguish them before the first pick? You would have B and C repeated twice.


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Monty
guest
Jul-17-08, 01:00 PM (EST)
 
70. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #1
 
   Mr. Stikker has a probability tree elsewhere in cut-the-knot. But it can, I believe, be simplified so the answer is very easliy seen. Here's the simpler tree: (In my Monty Hall problem, the winner gets an electronic game -- behind the other two doors are angry lions). Note 1/3 of the time you win if you don't change, and 2/3 you win by changing.


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alexb
Charter Member
2250 posts
Jul-18-08, 03:06 PM (EST)
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71. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #70
 
   Monty, hi.

Mr. Stikker is quite redundant, no doubt about that. I may only guess that his intention was to preempt a possible question, "And what if you choose the middle door? Or even the right one?"

There is no difference of course which door you start with. This may be obvious to you, me and to many others. Some may even insist that those who do not see this simple truth have no business solving puzzles.

I reserve a judgement. Would you like me to add your comment to the letter of Mr. Stikker?

Thank you,
Alex


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Monty
guest
Jul-30-08, 12:27 PM (EST)
 
73. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #71
 
   Dear Alex,
Yes, please do


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alexb
Charter Member
2250 posts
Jul-31-08, 09:05 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #73
 
   Thanks, I shall.


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a_tattletale
Member since Apr-16-02
Apr-29-02, 09:27 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #0
 
   I love how this problem seems to fool so many people of all intelligence. An easy way to see this is to first convince yourself, using the strategy of always switching doors, that:

- If you selected the winning door to begin with you are guaranteed to lose.
- If you selected a losing door to begin with you are guaranteed to win.

Then it is easy to see that the you will win with this strategy 2/3 of the time.

Your analysis here uses the strategy of exploring all possible outcomes. The flaw in your analysis is that you do not explore all possible outcomes (for probability's sake). Basically there are a total of 6 possible outcomes (you pick 1 of 3, host "picks" 1 of remaining 2).

In your case A, the probability of either of the 2 outcomes is actually 1/6 yet for cases B and C the probability is 1/3 (each since the host does not really have a choice).

From there you should see how the correct outcome comes to light.


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linkdon
Member since Apr-29-02
Apr-30-02, 06:31 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #2
 
   Thanks to <a_tattletale> for an illuminating response.

I think I see it now.

Essentially the flaw with my counting outcomes approach is that with the Always Switch or Always Stay strategies, what the host does in picking the door to open has no impact on the outcome--hence my two outcomes under case A should really be collapsed into one.

By the way, I don't see how there's 6 possible outcomes. Under the rules as originally stated, the game host will never open the door with the prize. He does have a choice under Case A, where you select the door with the prize, but as I stated above, this choice does not affect the outcome.

Thanks for clearing this up for me.

Don Link


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Psychlogic
guest
May-01-02, 03:54 PM (EST)
 
4. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #3
 
   The six initial possibilities are:

Car Goat1 Goat2
Car Goat2 Goat1

Goat1 Car Goat2
Goat2 Car Goat1

Goat1 Goat2 Car
Goat2 Goat1 Car

(Same reasoning as why chances of getting a head and a tail with a toss of 2 coins is 50% and not 33.3%--HH HT TH TT)

The above 6 starting positons clearly show that staying with the first choice (Column 1)loses 2/6 times and win 4/6 times.


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jrr7
guest
May-03-02, 04:18 PM (EST)
 
5. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #4
 
   What if the host does *NOT* always give you a chance to switch? What if the host knows the prizes beforehand and decides whether to give you a chance based on his knowledge? What if you suspect he wants you to lose/win?

I was reading it where you think of it in terms of game theory. The Contestant wants to win the car. The Host may: want the Contestant to win, want the Contestant to lose, or not care.

The Host, though, only gets to choose whether or not to offer the Contestant a switch.

If the Host wants the most possible wins, he'll only show a goat and offer a switch whne the player is on a goat.

If the Host wants the most possible losses, he'll only show a goat and offer a switch when the player is on the car.

What about the other cases?


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Trent Tatro
guest
May-05-02, 03:46 PM (EST)
 
6. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #5
 
   I can't believe what I'm reading, you people could convince yourselves
that the earth is flat.

The problem - You have 3 doors and choose 1. Then Monty Hall removes
one of the wrong answers from the problem. So you have TWO possible
outcomes - either stay or switch. One of these is the right answer
so you either get it right or you get it wrong. 50% You don't have
6 possible outcomes, or 4, or 3 or whatever you're all saying. You
either get it right or wrong (stay or switch) 2 possible outcomes with 1 correct answer, that says 50%.


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Alan Cooper
guest
May-10-02, 07:17 AM (EST)
 
7. "RE: Monty Hall Problem"
In response to message #6
 
   I don't know about the others, but anyone who believes your argument should easily be convinced that although the earth may not definitely be flat it at least has a 50% chance of being flat.Pick a planet at random. Either it is flat or it is not flat. Two possible outcomes. So the probability of being flat must be 50%

This illustrates a common fallacy in analysis of probabilities.
The fact that an experiment can be described as having two possible outcomes does not mean that both are equally likely.

To convince you that the conclusion o